National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

Double wank and shit chips
Kirbmarc
.
.
Posts: 10563
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:29 am
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#241

Post by Kirbmarc » Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:11 pm

Brive1987 wrote: She motivated you to pull down a vid from last year so you could accuse her of being a neo-nazi.

Re Jesus. Sometimes I like to test how bereft of humour this board has become. :lol:
Faith Goldy in a nutshell:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/imag ... MNig9viPtk

Brive1987
.
.
Posts: 16627
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:16 am
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#242

Post by Brive1987 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:14 pm

Kirbmarc wrote:
Brive1987 wrote: She motivated you to pull down a vid from last year so you could accuse her of being a neo-nazi.

Re Jesus. Sometimes I like to test how bereft of humour this board has become. :lol:
Faith Goldy in a nutshell:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/imag ... MNig9viPtk
The humour relates to Jesus. Faith is entirely humourless. Keep up.

Kirbmarc
.
.
Posts: 10563
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:29 am
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#243

Post by Kirbmarc » Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:16 pm

Brive1987 wrote:
Kirbmarc wrote:
Brive1987 wrote: She motivated you to pull down a vid from last year so you could accuse her of being a neo-nazi.

Re Jesus. Sometimes I like to test how bereft of humour this board has become. :lol:
Faith Goldy in a nutshell:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/imag ... MNig9viPtk
The humour relates to Jesus. Faith is entirely humourless. Keep up.
You said you wanted more humor, I gave you more humor.

Kirbmarc
.
.
Posts: 10563
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:29 am
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#244

Post by Kirbmarc » Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:20 pm

Jokes aside, Goldy hangs out with Nazis like the Daily Stormer guys, or nutters like Alex Jones, and parrots a lot of their talking points. But then she (or at least some of her fans) want you to believe she has nothing to do with them or their ideas. Curious.

free thoughtpolice
.
.
Posts: 10269
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:27 pm
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#245

Post by free thoughtpolice » Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:26 pm

The video was only about 2 months old. Big deal.
As for Jesus thing, it's really difficult to tell when you are making a 4D chess move or just making your run of the mill goofy statement. :P

free thoughtpolice
.
.
Posts: 10269
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:27 pm
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#246

Post by free thoughtpolice » Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:19 pm

Since we have resorted to bible quotes in this thread, these words of Jesus come to mind, verily:
Cultural Anglican Bible
I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the whites, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to replace than to be replaced.

Keating
.
.
Posts: 1862
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:18 pm
Location: South of anteater guy
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#247

Post by Keating » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:53 pm

I wrote a fairly lengthy post that eaten by a wrong keyboard click. I don't read off the main thread much, and hardly at all on the weekends.
Kirbmarc wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:49 am
You left out the issues with an independent press and the threats to journalistic investigations into corruption. Also the part about how power is concentrating within the hands of a few, connected people, while independent sectors of a democratic society are controlled more and more by a specific parties and cronies. Nothing really important in your view, probably, as long as the migrants are kept out.
This has always been a problem in Australia. There aren't many major news outlets, and haven't been for decades. There are still only 3 non-government free-to-air television broadcasters, and most cities have only one or two newspapers, mostly owned by the same one or two companies.
Kirbmarc wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:36 am
Is it fair yo say that you care more about preserving ethnic identity than about liberal democratic/Enlightenment values, Brive?
This is the wrong framing. The question is why some nations have liberal democratic/Enlightenment values and others don't. Africa, much of Asia, not to mention the Middle East are certainly largely on the "don't" side. Unless you are going to posit that the reason for this is the people, you have to find another reason. That is culture.

It is a mistake to think that liberal democracies are the end game of humanity, or the natural state that relatively rich humans will fall in to. I see no reason not to think that the Chinese social credit system could become the dominant cultural model in the future. Certainly, social media companies and their algorithms or corporations becoming moral enforcers (e.g. banks closing accounts of people with the wrong politics) is a long way down this road without government involvement. The only real constant is change. The solutions and ideas of the past may not necessarily work into the future, not least because why those solutions were arrived at often gets lost. The way I see it, Western countries have two major problems.

The first is that the academy has become completely corrupt. That is a major disaster because it means the next generation of leaders aren't going to understand why liberal democracies work.

The second is that the high trust that allowed Western societies to become prosperous is under sustained attack by identity politics and large influxes of people who have cultures that are directly at odds with the nation. When that's gone, all that's left is how much you can screw other people for.

Migration is a factor in the second problem. Institutions aren't enough, the people also have to have a common set of ideas and values about how society should be run. Consider if all the people in Switzerland were today replaced with an equal number of people from Saudi Arabia. Surely you'd agree that the trajectory Switzerland would be on would be vastly different afterwards? It isn't anything to do with race, but simply that the ideas that are currently present in the Saudi population means they would choose to make Switzerland less liberal and less democratic given the same set of institutions. That isn't to say that you couldn't changes those ideas over time in any particular Saudi and their descendants, simply that when the proportion of people with those particular values overwhelms those with liberal democratic ones, by nature of liberal democracies, those institutions can and would be changed. When the number of foreign born citizens starts to become a sizeable chunk of the population, and their source cultures are regressive, that is a significant voting block that tips the balance away from liberal democratic values.

We know that high trust societies are strongly reliant on individuals being sure that other members of society are part of the tribe and not the "other". Hyphenated citizens and other identity groups are termites on this foundation.

So, it isn't about preserving ethnic identity for me, but cultural identity. I think preserving liberal democratic/Enlightenment values can only exist with that foundation. I also think that they are far more fragile than commonly thought.

Kirbmarc
.
.
Posts: 10563
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:29 am
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#248

Post by Kirbmarc » Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:58 pm

This has always been a problem in Australia. There aren't many major news outlets, and haven't been for decades. There are still only 3 non-government free-to-air television broadcasters, and most cities have only one or two newspapers, mostly owned by the same one or two companies.
Australia seems to have some serious issues with freedom of the press, but it's still in the top 20 countries for press freedom according to the World Press Freedom Index. The "populist" Hungary is ranked as the 73rd out of 180 countries, and for good reasons:
Dozens of newspapers, radio and television stations critical of prime minister Viktor Orban have changed hands in the past four years. Some have subsequently closed down, while others swiftly and dramatically changed their editorial outlook.
Mr Toth-Szenesi said he was concerned that the ownership change could bring Index under the influence of Fidesz and its ideological agenda known as the National System of Cooperation (NER).

NER was launched in 2010 to counter liberal values and champion nationalist policies. Under its auspices some of Mr Orban’s friends and family have won an increasing share of publicly funded business.
In general the nationalist, "populist" movements are very eager to keep the press under increasing not only governmental, but plainly partisan control. A common trope on the "populist" right is to depict independent press as "the enemy of the people", to create narratives about how criticism is due to "globalist" influence, to suggest that errors in reporting, or clickbait business models, aren't simply issues to be recognized, but a deliberate plan to indoctrinate people into accepting "globalist" ideas.

We've seen this on a much smaller and less effective scale with Donald Trump. Even on this board, criticism of the Trump administration is routinely dismissed as "Trump Derangement Syndrome", made out to be a pathology, and there's a conspiratorial mindset about "the mainstream media" being a monolith of an alleged "globalist" ideology. This is not a coincidence, it's a precise feature of the "populist" movements which want to bypass media scrutiny to support a "secret truth" about world affairs.

For all the many, MANY flaws of many so-called "mainstream" outlets, the highly partisan pro-Trump press and "alternative" media have ZERO journalistic standards and routinely report not just biased, but outright false or highly misleading information with a clear agenda. Thankfully in the US there's far less governmental/partisan control over the press than in Hungary.

It's a mistake to give a pass to "alternative" media by saying that since it's not "establishment" journalism it can be judged less harshly. "Alternative" media are popular and influential. Indeed they've shaped the understanding of issues on this board noticeably. The shift to the right of the Pit is at least in part the product of valuing some highly partisan outlets due to the fact that they did some accurate reporting on some issues, like GamerGate, that other media mangled in their reporting (due to a combination of lack of popularity of some views, influence of certain narratives, and ignorance/shoddy reporting), and so starting to accept a-critically the information they contain and the narratives they support.
It is a mistake to think that liberal democracies are the end game of humanity, or the natural state that relatively rich humans will fall in to. I see no reason not to think that the Chinese social credit system could become the dominant cultural model in the future. Certainly, social media companies and their algorithms or corporations becoming moral enforcers (e.g. banks closing accounts of people with the wrong politics) is a long way down this road without government involvement. The only real constant is change. The solutions and ideas of the past may not necessarily work into the future, not least because why those solutions were arrived at often gets lost.
I agree that liberal democracy is not a "natural" endgame of humanity, or of prosperity. Corporate control of the news is a big issues in many "western" countries, and while it's not as bad as state/partisan control of the media in other countries, it's still very much a threat.

It is a mistake to believe that the "alternative" right wing, or even just the "alternative" sources of information in general, is interested in protecting media independence and pluralism, or freedom of the press in general, as much as they're only interested in protecting THEIR speech.

Roughly a year ago I pointed out how Sargon was perfectly willing to use the authoritarian rules of a code of conduct about "offense" to attack Anita Sarkeesian and shut her down. People thought this was perfectly legitimate "payback" and "using their rules against them". Winning the cultural war superseded the principles that people were supposed to defend. True, this was done on a small scale, but it's a red flag.

The threat to freedom of the press isn't JUST on the Social Justice left.
The first is that the academy has become completely corrupt. That is a major disaster because it means the next generation of leaders aren't going to understand why liberal democracies work.
I agree that academia has some serious issues when it comes to unchallenged, non-falsifiable idea put beyond criticism, and in this case it's mostly due to the Social Justice side. People like Boghossian, Pluckrose and Lindsay, or Jonathan Haidt, or Steven Pinker, are pushing back against this, but it is a pressing problem and probably the worst effect of the widespread a-critical acceptance of Social Justice ideas.

However the Hungarian solution in this case was even more authoritarian: instead of pushing for more openness to criticism and reform, they completely shut down the Central European University in Budapest, alleging that it was simply part of a conspiracy from George Soros to influence politics in Hungary.

That's a VERY illiberal and authoritarian move. Not only it deprives Hungary of an university out of ideological reasons (which is bad enough), but it has a chilling effect on every form of teaching that might run afoul of governmental/partisan control. Academia is sick, but the solution isn't to simply pull the plug on the centers of education that you deem "problematic".

Just to point out how misguided the move was, the Central European University included in the past among its former staff, and taught the teachings of, people like Ernest Gellner, one of the fiercest critics of "linguistic philosophy", and especially of the idea that meaning is ONLY socially constructed by communities, which is one of the foundations of the Social Justice approach. To completely shut the CEU down, out of a fear of indoctrination and ideological conformity, is to ENFORCE ideological conformity.

The CEU wasn't a madrassa. While it was financed by Soros, it was by all accounts a very open and pluralistic university. Where there some SJW-friendly course? Yes, of course, just like in many other universities. But to just pull the plug is to ignore the course that were NOT in ideological lockstep, and to severely limited freedom. You wouldn't want Trump to shut down Yale or the MIT.
Keating wrote: Consider if all the people in Switzerland were today replaced with an equal number of people from Saudi Arabia. Surely you'd agree that the trajectory Switzerland would be on would be vastly different afterwards? It isn't anything to do with race, but simply that the ideas that are currently present in the Saudi population means they would choose to make Switzerland less liberal and less democratic given the same set of institutions. That isn't to say that you couldn't changes those ideas over time in any particular Saudi and their descendants, simply that when the proportion of people with those particular values overwhelms those with liberal democratic ones, by nature of liberal democracies, those institutions can and would be changed. When the number of foreign born citizens starts to become a sizeable chunk of the population, and their source cultures are regressive, that is a significant voting block that tips the balance away from liberal democratic values.
I agree that if this happened overnight, and on such a massive scale, the social changes would also be massive. But that's NOT what's happening, not in Switzerland, not in Australia, and not even in Germany or Sweden. As I've said many times before I'm not saying that immigration shouldn't be regulated, or that integration shouldn't be promoted. Indeed I've written several times how the Salafi ideological control of muslim communities, through donations, indoctrination, and preaching of authoritarian and often violent ideas, is one of the big issues about muslim integration. I've pointed out how taking back people who went out to fight for ISIS is a HUGE mistake.

There ARE issues with immigration, and the idea of Completely Open Borders is highly unrealistic and potentially even dangerous.

The problem I have is that apocalyptic, conspiratorial mindset of the alt-right, and ESPECIALLY its focus on cultural/ethnic identity as the measure of all things. I'm not saying that culture just don't matter, but it changes, it develops, it's not the largely static frame that the alt-righters assume it to be.

The alt-right is actually a hurdle to a rational discussion of the issues of immigration, because it's about an apocalyptic, scaremongering scenario, about the idea of conspiracies of nefarious "globalist" cabals behind social phenomena.

If we want to have a rational discussion about cultural differences and immigration, which I agree is necessary, we can't give weight to the ideas of people who go around filming people who don't "look" French to build a narrative about how "France is not going to be French anymore", or who use hyperbolic language about "genocide", or who believe in conspiracy theories. Some ideas are simply so extreme and/or stupid that they poison the well, they taint some arguments.

Hell, we've seen the same thing happening with the SocJus. Law enforcement in the US has serious issues that are acknowledged by many right-wing libertarian thinkers (like asset forfeiture, for example, or a culture of impunity for abuses and of extreme militarization).

Roger Stone, no matter his flaws and potential guilt for many crimes, was right when he said that the sending a SWAT team to arrest him was excessive, disproportionate to his charges, and a potential threat to his life. He's a former member of Trump's staff, but he has experienced directly some of the issues that people in associations like Black Lives Matter complain about. So it's not hard, if one removes one's ideological blinders, to see that associations which point out issues with American law enforcement DO have a point.

Unfortunately whatever point BLM makes is confused by all the identitarian dross about how police shootings are a "genocide" of black people, or by the stupid ideas like chanting "pigs in a blanket, fry like bacon", or by the infiltration of supporters of Louis Farrakhan.

The same thing is true for the alt-right. Whatever points they may have are confused by the stupidity and conspiracy theories out of InfoWars, or the white identitarian narratives about a "white genocide", which prominent alt-righters like Faith Goldy or Lauren Southern frequently flirt with, or by infiltration of fans of Richard Spencer, or Jared Taylor, who are all about race, and about building a white ethnostate in the US.

The "culture war" has been a spiral of mutual radicalization on both sides, where "winning" over, or "triggering" the opposition has become the main goal, and any rational discussion of real issues has been sidelined. We need to end this before we can do anything productive.

Kirbmarc
.
.
Posts: 10563
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:29 am
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#249

Post by Kirbmarc » Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:13 pm

And before people accuse me of being arrogant or superior, I'm the first to point out that I have been involved in the mutual radicalization too, and MANY times!

I'm the guy who threatened Aneris with a lawsuit over forum shenanigans. That was stupid, childish even, and it was part of a mutual spiral of radicalization on both sides of the debate.

And even today I'm far too prone to falling back onto snark and sarcasm in lieu of arguments. Then again, everyone is. This is a social phenomenon, probably dependent on cognitive factors, and NO ONE is immune. Indeed believing yourself to be immune from partisanship and mutual radicalization over fierce confrontation of idea probably makes you MORE likely to fall prey to it.

What I DO know is that endorsing authoritarian ideas, endorsing the end of the dialogue by a-rational forces, is NOT the solution for whatever issues you might have. And neither is accepting a narrative of impending doom to shift the Overton window, because it backfires spectacularly and makes you look like a loon.

Brive1987
.
.
Posts: 16627
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:16 am
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#250

Post by Brive1987 » Tue Feb 19, 2019 12:06 am

Kirb:
If we want to have a rational discussion about cultural differences and immigration, which I agree is necessary, we can't give weight to the ideas of people who go around filming people who don't "look" French to build a narrative about how "France is not going to be French anymore", or who use hyperbolic language about "genocide", or who believe in conspiracy theories. Some ideas are simply so extreme and/or stupid that they poison the well, they taint some arguments.
Disagree. Replacement in the West of both culture and ethnicity is real. It doesn’t take 90% or even 51% to throw the system off. You can call the process whatever you want. It amounts to the same thing. A major shift in way of life and cultural norms.

The alt lite flirtation with white genocide and apocalypse is designed get people’s attention. You will recall that the infamous FG video put a ? after the title and didn’t use the term in the video at all. It was a sober statistical based demographic tale. The Southern video visually documented a cultural street scene that was manifestly imported. It revealed a global city, not a French city.

Your obsession with the extreme right is a way of avoiding the less easy to dismiss cultural and demographic challenges. Your placement of LS and FG into the same bucket as the neo nazis shows a lack of mental sophistication or perhaps simply a blunt debating tactic.

Kirbmarc
.
.
Posts: 10563
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:29 am
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#251

Post by Kirbmarc » Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:17 am

Brive1987 wrote: Kirb:
If we want to have a rational discussion about cultural differences and immigration, which I agree is necessary, we can't give weight to the ideas of people who go around filming people who don't "look" French to build a narrative about how "France is not going to be French anymore", or who use hyperbolic language about "genocide", or who believe in conspiracy theories. Some ideas are simply so extreme and/or stupid that they poison the well, they taint some arguments.
Disagree. Replacement in the West of both culture and ethnicity is real. It doesn’t take 90% or even 51% to throw the system off. You can call the process whatever you want. It amounts to the same thing. A major shift in way of life and cultural norms.

The alt lite flirtation with white genocide and apocalypse is designed get people’s attention. You will recall that the infamous FG video put a ? after the title and didn’t use the term in the video at all. It was a sober statistical based demographic tale. The Southern video visually documented a cultural street scene that was manifestly imported. It revealed a global city, not a French city.

Your obsession with the extreme right is a way of avoiding the less easy to dismiss cultural and demographic challenges. Your placement of LS and FG into the same bucket as the neo nazis shows a lack of mental sophistication or perhaps simply a blunt debating tactic.
The SocJus flirtation with anti-white, anti-male rhetoric and apocalypses ("rape culture" "patriarchy") was originally just a rhetorical tool designed to get people's attention to some problems. We've all seen how well that worked.

LS and FG deliberately fan the flames of ethnic/racial rhetoric, but don't want to be held accountable for what they say. They have no real solution to cultural and value issues other than unrealistic ideas about "completely stopping immigration", and don't even think about the effects of their identitarian rhetoric over cultural minorities that already live in the "west".

They claim to be interested in culture, not race, but make no efforts to say which cultural changes they want, and only clamor about "replacement". They hang around with really unsavory people, and repeat their memes, to "get attention". They might not be nazis but they are enabling some far-right ideas and people.

You don't go to Alex Jones, or to a Daily Stormer podcast, and agree with 90% of what they say, only to turn around and explain that your 10% of differences is what really matters, and then play the victim of libtard hate. Not if you want to be taken seriously, at least.

You don't want to acknowledge this, and insist on playing the victim and trying to smear those who criticize this as stupid or biased.

Kirbmarc
.
.
Posts: 10563
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:29 am
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#252

Post by Kirbmarc » Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:22 am

Replacement in the West of both culture and ethnicity is real. It doesn’t take 90% or even 51% to throw the system off.
So what exactly is the threshold for "replacement", pray tell? 10%? 5%? 2%?

Italian and Greek immigrants to Australia also brought their culture and ethnicity, and guess what, they might have had issues with crime and problems of integration, but they didn't lead to the "end of Australia" or to an Italian or Greek-style fascist dictatorship.

So why would immigrant from India or China or Sudan NECESSARILY lead to "cultural replacement"? Instead of leading to issues that might need to be addressed, but can be solved? What is so different this time?

Kirbmarc
.
.
Posts: 10563
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:29 am
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#253

Post by Kirbmarc » Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:37 am

I am a Swiss citizen of Turkish ancestry. I've been told many times by racists that I don't belong to Switzerland, often not very kindly, sometimes even threateningly (thankfully I've also been accepted many times and welcomed by others, who judged me for my character, not my ancestry). I've been beaten up a couple of times when I was younger. The rhetoric of "replacement" (or "white genocide") only inflames these kinds of attitudes.

I don't say this to whine about how "oppressed" I am, but to point out that this is the price you pay for stoking certain fears.

It's the same kind of exclusionary rhetoric that muslim fundamentalists use to call takfir on those they dislike: they're not "real muslims", they'ole "replacing" islam with the Evil Modernity, they're potential fifth columns, etc.

But it's apparently OK when the "right" side does it.

Brive1987
.
.
Posts: 16627
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:16 am
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#254

Post by Brive1987 » Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:01 am

Kirbmarc wrote:
Replacement in the West of both culture and ethnicity is real. It doesn’t take 90% or even 51% to throw the system off.
So what exactly is the threshold for "replacement", pray tell? 10%? 5%? 2%?

Italian and Greek immigrants to Australia also brought their culture and ethnicity, and guess what, they might have had issues with crime and problems of integration, but they didn't lead to the "end of Australia" or to an Italian or Greek-style fascist dictatorship.

So why would immigrant from India or China or Sudan NECESSARILY lead to "cultural replacement"? Instead of leading to issues that might need to be addressed, but can be solved? What is so different this time?
Non European culture. One they happen to want to retain.

In any case as they say, quantity possesses a quality all of its own. Mr Chang is lively. Several hundred thousand Mr Chang’s is a different dynamic.

http://i.imgur.com/ADktSjD.jpg


Keating
.
.
Posts: 1862
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:18 pm
Location: South of anteater guy
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#256

Post by Keating » Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:33 pm

Kirbmarc wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:58 pm
Australia seems to have some serious issues with freedom of the press, but it's still in the top 20 countries for press freedom according to the World Press Freedom Index.
The problem isn't press freedom, but viewpoint diversity. With so few outlets, you can choose between the government funded SocJus corporatist, not quite as bad as the BBC, but on the way, ABC, or the centre left corporatist, but collapsing due to low sales, FairFax, or the centre right corporatist, Murdoch News Corp. There's a few small online international outlets, like the Guardian or Buzzfeed, or Sky. You can tell what I think of those.
In general the nationalist, "populist" movements are very eager to keep the press under increasing not only governmental, but plainly partisan control.
I'm in favour of privatising the ABC because it is plainly partisan and infested with SocJus journalists pushing SocJus causes. Absolutely no reason why my taxes should have to go to funding that. My complaint is the exact opposite of what you are arguing against.
The shift to the right of the Pit is at least in part the product of valuing some highly partisan outlets due to the fact that they did some accurate reporting on some issues, like GamerGate, that other media mangled in their reporting (due to a combination of lack of popularity of some views, influence of certain narratives, and ignorance/shoddy reporting), and so starting to accept a-critically the information they contain and the narratives they support.
On the issue of migration, I certainly haven't shifted my position. Both my parents and sister worked for Australia's Department of Immigration, my father for over 40 years. I heard all the shit that didn't make the papers growing up. I'm strongly against migration and have little sympathy for "asylum seekers" as a result. (That isn't to say I don't have complaints with the other side; the "right wing" policies also tend to do things for political theatre that are completely wasteful. I also strongly oppose outsourcing visa processing and detention centre staff.)

I do have a very low opinion of journalism these days. There are very few journalists who actually do good work. Twitter, in particular, is probably the worst thing to happen here, as it put all the journalists into a echo-chamber bubble. Fuck off with your holier-than-thou idea that only "right-leaning" members of the pit are susceptible to "accepting a-critically" information, particularly in the week of Smollett. I will grant you that that I can certainly think of two, shall we say, "low information", pit members who do as you describe. That said, I do not, and have never considered myself "right-wing".
I agree that academia has some serious issues when it comes to unchallenged, non-falsifiable idea put beyond criticism, and in this case it's mostly due to the Social Justice side. People like Boghossian, Pluckrose and Lindsay, or Jonathan Haidt, or Steven Pinker, are pushing back against this, but it is a pressing problem and probably the worst effect of the widespread a-critical acceptance of Social Justice ideas.
The university I attended, which has one of the best reputations in Australia, has a Centre for Arab and Islamic Studies, funded by Middle Eastern countries, and a typical grievance studies Gender Institute, but refused to accept money from a dead Australian philanthropist to run a Western Civilisation course. The situation is already actively illiberal and authoritarian, not to mention actively working against Australia's future ability to maintain a liberal democracy.
But that's NOT what's happening, not in Switzerland, not in Australia, and not even in Germany or Sweden.
At what percentage of the population would this become a problem for you? In Australia, nearly one third of citizens were foreign born in the 2016 census, and over 50% of Australians have a foreign born parent. The rate of migration is at historic highs and neither of the major political parties have an intention of reducing it.

I think the reason is economic, more than anything else. The economy is largely a ponzi scheme, and requires growth. We've had a (nominal) right-wing foreign minister who openly advocated selling Australian citizenship for a few millions dollars. Australia may have a large land mass, but most of the continent is uninhabitable and simply cannot support modern agriculture. It's projected we'll flip from a net food exporter to a net food importer within the century. We have fresh water shortages projected for most of Australia's major cities, and many small towns already have water quality issues. Due to political posturing, we knew that we'd start have electrical shortages by now, and that new baseload power plants would need to have started construction a decade ago. None were started, which prevents desalination a solution.
The problem I have is that apocalyptic, conspiratorial mindset of the alt-right, and ESPECIALLY its focus on cultural/ethnic identity as the measure of all things. I'm not saying that culture just don't matter, but it changes, it develops, it's not the largely static frame that the alt-righters assume it to be.
Again, fuck off with your framing. A long time discussion in Australia is that much of our cultural products are imported from the United States, rather than locally produced content. Locally produced content that is based on local Australian idiosyncrasies has always been something I support. The internet has largely killed this discussion, as fewer people, including me, watch broadcast television anymore. SocJus has infested this as well. The author of one of Australia's best Young Adult book series, that had a big influence on me in the 90s, recently said that he wouldn't have written the books today because of the changed political climate.
If we want to have a rational discussion about cultural differences and immigration, which I agree is necessary, we can't give weight to the ideas of people who go around filming people who don't "look" French to build a narrative about how "France is not going to be French anymore", or who use hyperbolic language about "genocide", or who believe in conspiracy theories. Some ideas are simply so extreme and/or stupid that they poison the well, they taint some arguments.
Depends. I was recently in Sydney, and found the sign posting just outside the CBD in Korean and other parts in Chinese. That is not integration of any level, it is a colony. Again, back to stories I know from immigration, Australia has an ongoing battle with South Korea over Korean women coming to Australia to work as prostitutes. Sex work is legal in most states of Australia, but not in Korea. Due to the large numbers of Koreans in Australia, they prefer to see Korean sex workers, hence the lucrative demand for Korean women to do sex work here. Korea would prefer Australia prevent this, but we can't because work visas do not discriminate for occupation. Numerous Chinese young people also get work visas to come to Australia to work in the service industry. Chinese tourism is quite lucrative so we get a large number of Chinese visitors each year. Hotels have found that they are far more likely to get business if they are staffed with Chinese nationals working on visas then they are if they employ locals. This is clearly insane.
Italian and Greek immigrants to Australia also brought their culture and ethnicity, and guess what, they might have had issues with crime and problems of integration, but they didn't lead to the "end of Australia" or to an Italian or Greek-style fascist dictatorship.
Maybe not, but the fact that there are still areas of Melbourne known as the "Greek Precinct", shows how long it takes for integration to happen, and why Australia's insanely high migration rate is a problem. And both Italy and Greece are far more culturally similar to Australia than China or Indian are.
I've been told many times by racists that I don't belong to Switzerland, often not very kindly, sometimes even threateningly (thankfully I've also been accepted many times and welcomed by others, who judged me for my character, not my ancestry). I've been beaten up a couple of times when I was younger.
You aren't the only one. My ancestry is Baltic European and South American (mostly of Spanish origin). I look Iranian as a result, although I have no connection to that area. I can match you in the Oppression Olympics if you want to go down that route.

Keating
.
.
Posts: 1862
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:18 pm
Location: South of anteater guy
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#257

Post by Keating » Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:41 pm

Ironically, one of the worst experiences I've had was travelling on an Estonian EU passport in Switzerland, where the local official wouldn't believe that Estonia was part of the EU.

Kirbmarc
.
.
Posts: 10563
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:29 am
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#258

Post by Kirbmarc » Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:00 am

Keating wrote: The problem isn't press freedom, but viewpoint diversity. With so few outlets, you can choose between the government funded SocJus corporatist, not quite as bad as the BBC, but on the way, ABC, or the centre left corporatist, but collapsing due to low sales, FairFax, or the centre right corporatist, Murdoch News Corp. There's a few small online international outlets, like the Guardian or Buzzfeed, or Sky. You can tell what I think of those.
The point I was making was about how some of the parties and movements that some in the alt-right celebrate (like Fidesz in Hungary, which was what Brive was gushing about) are very much a threat to press freedom, and very much in favor of concentration of media power under partisan hands. I was pointing out how this doesn't happen in Australia, and how confiding in those movements to preserve cultural identity, at the expense of freedom, isn't a good idea.
I'm in favour of privatising the ABC because it is plainly partisan and infested with SocJus journalists pushing SocJus causes. Absolutely no reason why my taxes should have to go to funding that. My complaint is the exact opposite of what you are arguing against.
Again, this was about how when populist movements that the alt-right likes come to power they tend to be very much against pluralism and freedom. Donald Trump in the United States has also repeatedly threatened media independence through his rhetoric and lawsuits. The intent of the post was warning about how a narrow focus on the SocJus might have lead people here to ignore other threats, because they come from sources that are hostile to SocJus causes.
I do have a very low opinion of journalism these days. There are very few journalists who actually do good work. Twitter, in particular, is probably the worst thing to happen here, as it put all the journalists into a echo-chamber bubble. Fuck off with your holier-than-thou idea that only "right-leaning" members of the pit are susceptible to "accepting a-critically" information, particularly in the week of Smollett. I will grant you that that I can certainly think of two, shall we say, "low information", pit members who do as you describe. That said, I do not, and have never considered myself "right-wing".
I wasn't trying to be holier-than-thou, but to point out how certain dynamics work. Support for Trump and for some alt-right ideas has no doubt increased on the board, and to a degree this is because some alt-right "alternative media" have actually done better reporting on some subjects than other outlets. It's a common human cognitive bias to start to trust someone when they get it right about something that matters to you, even though they're not reliable as a whole. For example Breitbart of all places did some better reporting on GamerGate than other outlets, which might have led people here (and in other places) to take it more seriously, even though it's a VERY partisan outlets.

Everyone is susceptible to accepting a-critically information when they're motivated by something that matters to them. This is a board that was created to answer to a specific issue (SocJus in Atheism) and this tends to color our approach to reality. All I'm saying is that it might have narrowed our focus so much that we sometimes fail to see the bigger picture. Many times I get angry about some stupid SocJus thing, then I realize that it was tweeted by a random nut with 100 followers, for example, and that happens to a lot of people.
The university I attended, which has one of the best reputations in Australia, has a Centre for Arab and Islamic Studies, funded by Middle Eastern countries, and a typical grievance studies Gender Institute, but refused to accept money from a dead Australian philanthropist to run a Western Civilisation course. The situation is already actively illiberal and authoritarian, not to mention actively working against Australia's future ability to maintain a liberal democracy.
This is certainly a big issue, and the part about accepting funds by Middle Eastern countries to create a center for Islamic Studies is particularly worrying. Taking a look at the curricula, there, is very important. People wouldn't accept money from Russia to finance a center of Eurasian studies which preached Dugin's bullshit.
At what percentage of the population would this become a problem for you? In Australia, nearly one third of citizens were foreign born in the 2016 census, and over 50% of Australians have a foreign born parent. The rate of migration is at historic highs and neither of the major political parties have an intention of reducing it.
The claim about one third of citizens being foreign born is a bit misleading in the context of Brive's identitarian concerns, which are not about immigration in general, but immigration from some specific countries:
Place of Birth: 2016 Australia 15,615,531 England 1,002,100 New Zealand 568,200 Mainland China 557,700 India 489,400 Philippines 252,700 Vietnam 243,200 Italy 195,800 South Africa 180,500 Malaysia 152,900 Scotland 137,800 Sri Lanka 124,500 Germany 116,700 Greece 113,400 South Korea 111,600 United States 105,700
If the focus is about non-"culturally European" immigrants (as it is the case for Brive and the other people who are concerned about preserving identity), only about 3.5 million people have non-"culturally European" ancestry. That's roughly one in eight, around 12%. He and other alt-righters don't seem to be concerned with people whose parents were born in Italy, the UK, Greece or Germany, or New Zealand or the United States for that matter.
I think the reason is economic, more than anything else. The economy is largely a ponzi scheme, and requires growth. We've had a (nominal) right-wing foreign minister who openly advocated selling Australian citizenship for a few millions dollars. Australia may have a large land mass, but most of the continent is uninhabitable and simply cannot support modern agriculture. It's projected we'll flip from a net food exporter to a net food importer within the century. We have fresh water shortages projected for most of Australia's major cities, and many small towns already have water quality issues. Due to political posturing, we knew that we'd start have electrical shortages by now, and that new baseload power plants would need to have started construction a decade ago. None were started, which prevents desalination a solution.
These are more concrete and practical concerns, but they'd probably be better addressed if they were promoted on their own, about demographic crises due to overpopulation in terms of sustainability, rather than within the identitarian mesh. It's the same problem that the SocJus has ran into when they've buried genuine concerns into identitarian narratives.
Again, fuck off with your framing. A long time discussion in Australia is that much of our cultural products are imported from the United States, rather than locally produced content. Locally produced content that is based on local Australian idiosyncrasies has always been something I support. The internet has largely killed this discussion, as fewer people, including me, watch broadcast television anymore. SocJus has infested this as well. The author of one of Australia's best Young Adult book series, that had a big influence on me in the 90s, recently said that he wouldn't have written the books today because of the changed political climate.
Is this a problem of immigration, though, or of changing social issues? I agree that the internet has had (paradoxically enough) a bad effect on shared discussion, and that the SocJus standards are having bad effects on literature or pop culture, but that's not a specific Australian problem, nor one that is caused by immigration per se.
Depends. I was recently in Sydney, and found the sign posting just outside the CBD in Korean and other parts in Chinese. That is not integration of any level, it is a colony. Again, back to stories I know from immigration, Australia has an ongoing battle with South Korea over Korean women coming to Australia to work as prostitutes. Sex work is legal in most states of Australia, but not in Korea. Due to the large numbers of Koreans in Australia, they prefer to see Korean sex workers, hence the lucrative demand for Korean women to do sex work here. Korea would prefer Australia prevent this, but we can't because work visas do not discriminate for occupation. Numerous Chinese young people also get work visas to come to Australia to work in the service industry. Chinese tourism is quite lucrative so we get a large number of Chinese visitors each year. Hotels have found that they are far more likely to get business if they are staffed with Chinese nationals working on visas then they are if they employ locals. This is clearly insane.
Again, some of these are very practical concerns about lack of incentives for integration and disincentives for ghettoization (like cutting down work visas for sex workers , or regulating them for the service industry). I'm not saying that there are zero serious issues with immigration, rather than the alt-right paradigm about "the death of the west" is dumbing down the discourse, and enabling some actors which aren't about concrete problems, but about racial/cultural bigotry.
Maybe not, but the fact that there are still areas of Melbourne known as the "Greek Precinct", shows how long it takes for integration to happen, and why Australia's insanely high migration rate is a problem. And both Italy and Greece are far more culturally similar to Australia than China or Indian are.
My point was that integration within a liberal democratic society is possible, not necessarily easy or automatic. I'm not opposed to the idea of regulating fluxes of immigration to make integration easier, and maybe immigration to Australia at the moment is too high for that. That's not an unreasonable position a priori.

The problem is that if this is done through the rhetoric of a Faith Goldy or of a Lauren Southern you look like a far-right loon, and enable far-right loons by parroting their ideas and memes. There's a reason why Goldy couldn't get a foot in the door in the Toronto election.

Brive seems to think that any concern about the Goldy-Daily Stormer/Alex Jones connection, or her "provocative" use of the 14 words and "white genocide", is only "libtard hate", when instead it's the natural consequence of Goldy using far-right friendly trolling to push her ideas forward. So she's either a closet white supremacist, or someone who uses white supremacist memes to make people notice her, then turn around and claim she's oppressed.

I don't accept that kind of shit from people who push SocJus hot takes to "start a conversation", so I'm even less inclined to those who go full 14 words, but not really, just to be noticed.

If the ideas that the Southern or Goldy really want to promote are about promoting integration and addressing specific issues of cultural isolation due to immigration in order to reduce social and economic tensions, why aren't they simply doing that? Why are they reaching for alt-right ideas about "the death of the west" or "the big replacement"? It seems like they're either supporting the far-right ideas, or more interested in getting clicks and attention than in discussing real problems and possible solutions.

If you can articulate some of the problems of immigration without sounding like a far-right lunatic, why can't they?
I can match you in the Oppression Olympics if you want to go down that route.
That wasn't the point. I explicitly pointed out that I wasn't writing this to whine about oppression, but to highlight how certain apocalyptic rhetoric ("the death of the west" "the big replacement") has serious consequences. Brive and other alt-right fans shrug at those.

Kirbmarc
.
.
Posts: 10563
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:29 am
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#259

Post by Kirbmarc » Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:13 am

Imagine a movement of people who interviewed and praised spokesmen from the North Korean regime about the evils of capitalism, talked about the beauty of the incoming violent communist revolution, made videos about how people in suit going around were going to face "true justice" for causing market crashes some day (without even caring whether those suit-wearing people were Wall Street executives or lawyers defending people about to be evicted) and wrote about how you really "need to seize the means of production by any means" but then turned around and claimed that they were only joking and trying to get attention, and they were never really about totalitarian communism, joke's on you right-wingers, we're only talking about welfare and healthcare reform?

Would you be saying that it's unfair that people think that they're apologist for authoritarian communism? Or that it's their own damn fault for flirting with it in terms of language and rhetoric?

What about a group of people who claimed that islam will one day conquer the entire world, that apostasy is the worst of all evils, who interviewed spokesmen from Saudi Arabia about how the west is corrupt and will fail, made videos about women without hijabs while deploring how this was "the end of society", and wrote about how "jihad is wonderful", but then turned around and claimed that they were only joking and trying to get attention, joke's on you islamophobes, we're only talking about protecting the rights of muslims?

Would you be saying that it's unfair that people thought that they were apologists for the worst of reactionary islam? Or that it's their own damn fault for flirting with it in terms of language and rhetoric?

How is this any different from what the alt-right is doing with far-right memes and principles?

Kirbmarc
.
.
Posts: 10563
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:29 am
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#260

Post by Kirbmarc » Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:19 am

Incidentally internet tankies like Dan Arel are close the first group, and people like Linda Sarsour are close to the second group. Pretty much everyone here thins they're cunts who are at best trolling for attention, at worst actually trying to normalize extreme ideas and make them mainstream.

Why should we be more lenient towards Faith Goldy, or Lauren Southern, or BlackPigeonSpeaks, or other alt-righters?

Brive1987
.
.
Posts: 16627
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:16 am
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#261

Post by Brive1987 » Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:31 am

You have used alt-right 9 times and far-right once in that mess.

And opined twice that I’m alt-right.

Yet I don’t think you have any clear concept what you are talking about sans “someone concerned with preserving identity”. Which is of course neither “alt” nor “far” right.

But go on. Tell Keating he is a far-right pipeline.
Maybe not, but the fact that there are still areas of Melbourne known as the "Greek Precinct", shows how long it takes for integration to happen, and why Australia's insanely high migration rate is a problem. And both Italy and Greece are far more culturally similar to Australia than China or Indian are.
You’re too much of a fucking zealot to learn from anything you didn’t write. But for the record alt-lite is concerned with cultural identity. Alt-right/far-right is a looney mix of Jewish conspiracies, magic blood, white supremacy and Nazi fetish. It has both soft and hard wings.

You have crossed the threshold from libtard to dickhead.

Kirbmarc
.
.
Posts: 10563
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:29 am
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#262

Post by Kirbmarc » Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:46 am

Brive1987 wrote: You have used alt-right 9 times and far-right once in that mess.

And opined twice that I’m alt-right.

Yet I don’t think you have any clear concept what you are talking about sans “someone concerned with preserving identity”. Which is of course neither “alt” nor “far” right.

But go on. Tell Keating he is a far-right pipeline.
Maybe not, but the fact that there are still areas of Melbourne known as the "Greek Precinct", shows how long it takes for integration to happen, and why Australia's insanely high migration rate is a problem. And both Italy and Greece are far more culturally similar to Australia than China or Indian are.
You’re too much of a fucking zealot to learn from anything you didn’t write. But for the record alt-lite is concerned with cultural identity. Alt-right/far-right is a looney mix of Jewish conspiracies, magic blood, white supremacy and Nazi fetish. It has both soft and hard wings.

You have crossed the threshold from libtard to dickhead.
There's no such thing as a clear line in the sand between the "cultural identity" people, the "invasion and fall of the west" people, the "race and IQ" people, and the white supremacists.


You act as if people of these fields never worked together, or acted as a shield for one another, or borrowed ideas and memes from each other, or went on podcast and events together.

Also you're ignoring how much the real issues are secondary to the clickbait and the scaremongering, at least in the "alternative" media.

You are throeing a hissy fit because people point this out to you, and cobstantly play the victim.

Brive1987
.
.
Posts: 16627
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:16 am
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#263

Post by Brive1987 » Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:20 pm

There's no such thing as a clear line in the sand between the "cultural identity" people, the "invasion and fall of the west" people, the "race and IQ" people, and the white supremacists.
There no such thing as a clear line between red and orange.

And yet.

I’m throwing a hissy fit because I wasted time reading a diatribe which didn’t define key terms - part of a strategy of misdirection.

While being called orange when I’m clearly red.

Keating
.
.
Posts: 1862
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:18 pm
Location: South of anteater guy
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#264

Post by Keating » Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:41 pm

Kirbmarc wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:00 am
The point I was making was about how some of the parties and movements that some in the alt-right celebrate (like Fidesz in Hungary, which was what Brive was gushing about) are very much a threat to press freedom, and very much in favor of concentration of media power under partisan hands. I was pointing out how this doesn't happen in Australia, and how confiding in those movements to preserve cultural identity, at the expense of freedom, isn't a good idea.
Right, so if I go on a rant here about the Maoism of the ctrl-left now, and try to paint you with that brush, that would clearly be constructive. That was part of what I was trying to point out to you about your argument style. It's not on point, and is largely well-poisoning.

Australia's media is already largely concentrated in partisan hands - leftist SocJus hands. That isn't a good idea either. I frankly don't care too much about Hungary. I don't live there, have no connections to the place, and they aren't a powerful enough country for any self-inflicted problems to spill out outside of their own borders. Additionally, the approach they are taking, while bad, is easy enough to undo in the future. The mass migration Australia is undergoing, by contrast, cannot be undone.
Again, this was about how when populist movements that the alt-right likes come to power they tend to be very much against pluralism and freedom. Donald Trump in the United States has also repeatedly threatened media independence through his rhetoric and lawsuits. The intent of the post was warning about how a narrow focus on the SocJus might have lead people here to ignore other threats, because they come from sources that are hostile to SocJus causes.
I really don't understand how you can make this argument with a straight face. Donald Trump says stuff, sure, but he doesn't actually do anything. Point to one example of the US government, spearheaded by Trump, actually clamping down on media. No doubt Trump has said dumb stuff, but that isn't enough. On the other hand, almost the entirety of the US media (and Australia's ABC) were completely on board with the recent Smollett case narrative, at least until it (obviously) fell apart. Numerous people who have worked on Democrat campaigns or for Democratic governments have high placed jobs in several news media organisations. CNN hires a single person who worked with Jeff Sessions, and all of leftist Twitter goes nuts about the how terrible this is. The far-left has far too much control over the media already, and that terrifies me for long term liberal democratic stability than Trump being Trump.

Statistics are easy to find for the United States, where a clear majority of journalists are democrats. (This is largely a result of the urban-rural divide - most media companies have been concentrated in major cities, and they heavily lean left/SocJus.) I'm certain that Australia's position is similar. I remember, although I can't find it right now, a report showing something like 40% of the ABC's staff were Greens voters. The Greens are Australia's far left party (it does have some open communists in it), and typically gets around 10% of the vote nationally. (I have voted Green in the past, but it keeps going down the SocJus rabbit hole). This seems like a big problem to me. It has to be turned around for the same reasons you are arguing that Hungary is in trouble.
All I'm saying is that it might have narrowed our focus so much that we sometimes fail to see the bigger picture.
Yeah, I'm arguing that is true for you too. I never tweet, don't use Facebook or other social media. This forum is about the extent of my public commenting, and even here, I don't contribute that much. I have a large variety of media sources, especially ones I disagree with. If there is one area I've certainly moved on, it's anti-theism. One of the reasons I was reading PZ in the first place, so many years ago now, was that I did think Sam Harris style anti-theism was the right approach. Will I remain an atheist, I'm no longer convinced that is to the net benefit of humanity. (Another thread to discussing those deeper issues would be interesting, but I doubt this board could sustain it anymore).
If the focus is about non-"culturally European" immigrants (as it is the case for Brive and the other people who are concerned about preserving identity), only about 3.5 million people have non-"culturally European" ancestry. That's roughly one in eight, around 12%. He and other alt-righters don't seem to be concerned with people whose parents were born in Italy, the UK, Greece or Germany, or New Zealand or the United States for that matter.
Not to me, it isn't. I don't think people from the UK should be let in in large numbers either. Having lived in the UK too, there was some culture shock for me being there. Not to mention, Australia has a long, proud tradition of making fun of Poms. We aren't the same anymore, and I don't want Australia to be more like them either. All mass migration is dangerous.
My point was that integration within a liberal democratic society is possible, not necessarily easy or automatic. I'm not opposed to the idea of regulating fluxes of immigration to make integration easier, and maybe immigration to Australia at the moment is too high for that. That's not an unreasonable position a priori.
No one here disagrees it is possible. The time required to do so is the issue. It has such a long lag time. The Cronulla riots occurred over 20 years after the migrants responsible arrived.
The problem is that if this is done through the rhetoric of a Faith Goldy or of a Lauren Southern you look like a far-right loon, and enable far-right loons by parroting their ideas and memes. There's a reason why Goldy couldn't get a foot in the door in the Toronto election.
I'm at the point where I'm a single issue voter on this issue, I think it is that bad. I no longer can afford to consider any other factors in deciding who I vote for. Australia has a preferencial voting system. I cannot give any votes to any political party that wants to continue mass migration. This is definitely something I raise with my representatives at every opportunity too.

I also totally disagree that the problem is the loons like Alex Jones. The problem is the left. Any discussion of this or any related issue is immediately shut down, meaning that the loons are the only voices that can be heard. Take a look at this polling:



(from here)

The mainstream right wing is happy to have a conversation. The majority of the mainstream left is no longer prepared to. That is the problem, and it is a far left, not a far right problem. The "far right", such as it is, is the bogey-man the far left uses to shut down real conversation. I have no particular interest in addressing the (obvious) problems with the loons at the Daily Stormer. They have no power. They are getting deplatformed, getting their bank accounts shut down, being refused service by hotels and restaurants, and the subject of the regular 2 minutes of hate by the mainstream media. They aren't a threat (although they are being turned into martyrs). The far left, on the other hand, has very real power in the media, and in academia in a way that is detrimental to the functioning of a stable liberal democracy over the long term.

Brive1987
.
.
Posts: 16627
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:16 am
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#265

Post by Brive1987 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Keating wrote:
The mainstream right wing is happy to have a conversation. The majority of the mainstream left is no longer prepared to. That is the problem, and it is a far left, not a far right problem. The "far right", such as it is, is the bogey-man the far left uses to shut down real conversation. I have no particular interest in addressing the (obvious) problems with the loons at the Daily Stormer. They have no power. They are getting deplatformed, getting their bank accounts shut down, being refused service by hotels and restaurants, and the subject of the regular 2 minutes of hate by the mainstream media. They aren't a threat (although they are being turned into martyrs). The far left, on the other hand, has very real power in the media, and in academia in a way that is detrimental to the functioning of a stable liberal democracy over the long term.
When PJW makes more commonsense observations than your local highly educated liberal board member.

A scary (tragic) train wreak I can’t turn away from.


Kirbmarc
.
.
Posts: 10563
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:29 am
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#266

Post by Kirbmarc » Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:34 am

Brive1987 wrote:
Keating wrote:
The mainstream right wing is happy to have a conversation. The majority of the mainstream left is no longer prepared to. That is the problem, and it is a far left, not a far right problem. The "far right", such as it is, is the bogey-man the far left uses to shut down real conversation. I have no particular interest in addressing the (obvious) problems with the loons at the Daily Stormer. They have no power. They are getting deplatformed, getting their bank accounts shut down, being refused service by hotels and restaurants, and the subject of the regular 2 minutes of hate by the mainstream media. They aren't a threat (although they are being turned into martyrs). The far left, on the other hand, has very real power in the media, and in academia in a way that is detrimental to the functioning of a stable liberal democracy over the long term.
When PJW makes more commonsense observations than your local highly educated liberal board member.

A scary (tragic) train wreak I can’t turn away from.

Smollett is hardly off the hook. He's the subject of a criminal investigation. He could go to jail if convicted.

The decision about who to hire or fire isn't about public laws or policies, but about private business decisions. Unless you think that TV networks should be nationalized, or all actors should a common national contract with the same provisions and clauses, there's very little you can do about it.

There's no Old Man in the Mountain deciding rules about what to keep in and whp to cast out.

I think that the smart move from a PR point of view would have been to fire Smollett at this point, but I don't run HBO.

Perhaps they're afraid that he could sue them if he's acquitted. Perhaps they have some strict clauses in his contract about wrongful termination. Or perhaps it's just personal and ideological favoritism.

Maybe PJW&co will start a Twitter dogpile to get Smollett fired, just like the SocJus did to Barr. I don't think that's a good idea, but what do I know, I'm just a random shitposter on a forum.

Brive1987
.
.
Posts: 16627
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:16 am
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#267

Post by Brive1987 » Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:22 am

Maybe he will. But probably not.

It’s a simple demonstration of the strength of SJ control of social culture. Which is what the commercial decision is based on.

Lsuoma
Fascist Tit
Posts: 10476
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:58 pm
Location: Punggye-ri
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#268

Post by Lsuoma » Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:00 am

Brive1987 wrote: Maybe he will. But probably not.

It’s a simple demonstration of the strength of SJ control of social culture. Which is what the commercial decision is based on.
SmoSmo has been suspended from Empire (according to the Beeb. So I'm not sure whether to believe it).

free thoughtpolice
.
.
Posts: 10269
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:27 pm
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#269

Post by free thoughtpolice » Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:01 am

Here is another report by Pyjamas Watson:
https://www.infowars.com/report-fbi-inv ... ed-attack/
The FBI could even be looking at people within the Democratic Party machine in Chicago who were aware that Smollett planned to pull the hoax as a political stunt to demonize President Trump and his supporters.
More hard hitting facts from the alt media. When it turns out Hillary isn't involved you can be sure their will be a retraction.


Brive1987
.
.
Posts: 16627
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:16 am
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#271

Post by Brive1987 » Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:11 pm

free thoughtpolice wrote: Here is another report by Pyjamas Watson:
https://www.infowars.com/report-fbi-inv ... ed-attack/
The FBI could even be looking at people within the Democratic Party machine in Chicago who were aware that Smollett planned to pull the hoax as a political stunt to demonize President Trump and his supporters.
More hard hitting facts from the alt media. When it turns out Hillary isn't involved you can be sure their will be a retraction.
Who the fuck has time to waste on info wars? Not all alt media is equal. Same for MSM.

Brive1987
.
.
Posts: 16627
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:16 am
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#272

Post by Brive1987 » Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:14 pm

I only like PJ’s short commentaries because he says blindly obvious non PC commonsense things. Stuff that the sane part of society agrees with - but is too cowed to articulate.

I’ll go elsewhere for exposition.

free thoughtpolice
.
.
Posts: 10269
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:27 pm
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#273

Post by free thoughtpolice » Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:51 pm

Brive1987 wrote: I only like PJ’s short commentaries because he says blindly obvious non PC commonsense things. Stuff that the sane part of society agrees with - but is too cowed to articulate.

I’ll go elsewhere for exposition.
The link I provide was a short piece by Watson that basically accused the Dems of collaborating with Smollet to pull off that stupid hoax, hardly what I would consider a form of narrative exposition. Maybe we read different dictionaries?
As for who the hell has time for infowars? That is who PJ Watson writes for and the same outfit that broadcasts his nonPC videos.

Brive1987
.
.
Posts: 16627
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:16 am
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#274

Post by Brive1987 » Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:17 pm

free thoughtpolice wrote:
Brive1987 wrote: I only like PJ’s short commentaries because he says blindly obvious non PC commonsense things. Stuff that the sane part of society agrees with - but is too cowed to articulate.

I’ll go elsewhere for exposition.
The link I provide was a short piece by Watson that basically accused the Dems of collaborating with Smollet to pull off that stupid hoax, hardly what I would consider a form of narrative exposition. Maybe we read different dictionaries?
As for who the hell has time for infowars? That is who PJ Watson writes for and the same outfit that broadcasts his nonPC videos.
I think Prison Planet is the brand for his opinion pieces.

free thoughtpolice
.
.
Posts: 10269
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:27 pm
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#275

Post by free thoughtpolice » Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:53 pm

From wikipedo:
Prisonplanet.com, a website operated by American conspiracy theorist Alex Jones

Brive1987
.
.
Posts: 16627
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:16 am
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#276

Post by Brive1987 » Fri Feb 22, 2019 7:38 pm

The product branded A is a different service to that operating under brand B even though both are operated by owning entity C. I see value / entertainment in B but not A. And when B and A overlap I lose interest.

Same dynamic as when I consume beer.

Brive1987
.
.
Posts: 16627
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:16 am
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#277

Post by Brive1987 » Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:22 pm

free thoughtpolice wrote: From wikipedo:
Prisonplanet.com, a website operated by American conspiracy theorist Alex Jones
CFB is happy to criticise shit he won’t watch. Maybe you could rise above this standard and explain the evil and warped POV in this clip ....

If I could, I’d force the soft left to watch this in the spirit of force marching Germans through concentration camps.

You, however, position yourself to be appalled.

:doh:


CaptainFluffyBunny
.
.
Posts: 7553
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:39 am
Location: Somewhere in the pipes
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#278

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:20 am

Brive1987 wrote:
free thoughtpolice wrote: From wikipedo:
Prisonplanet.com, a website operated by American conspiracy theorist Alex Jones
CFB is happy to criticise shit he won’t watch. Maybe you could rise above this standard and explain the evil and warped POV in this clip ....

If I could, I’d force the soft left to watch this in the spirit of force marching Germans through concentration camps.

You, however, position yourself to be appalled.

:doh:

CFB has taken a moral stand against giving slimy nutbags views. Same reason we go to archived versions of FtBs. CFB also doesn't have the time to watch nutbags, CFB has a life. CFB will also point out that you often comment on things without having read the article. Which goes much faster than a ten minute video. Thus says CFB, may the farts of angels loft him through his blessed day.

free thoughtpolice
.
.
Posts: 10269
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:27 pm
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#279

Post by free thoughtpolice » Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:20 am

Brive1987 wrote:
free thoughtpolice wrote: From wikipedo:
Prisonplanet.com, a website operated by American conspiracy theorist Alex Jones

CFB is happy to criticise shit he won’t watch. Maybe you could rise above this standard and explain the evil and warped POV in this clip ....

If I could, I’d force the soft left to watch this in the spirit of force marching Germans through concentration camps.

You, however, position yourself to be appalled.

:doh:

His comedy is about as funny as Hannah Gadsby. It's not, and like Gadsby not even watchable. Of course you know that the mentally ill left like Gadsby and Smollet are the products of the excesses of the alt-lite, alt right, and the neonazis which are all pretty much the same bunch.*
Who are the "soft left" you want to force to watch this tripe? You talking about me? Are you blaming me and my "type" for the behavior of this stupid cunt?
If you could you would force me to watch this sneering, bullshit propaganda?
* Using the logic that if all lefties are the same all righties are the same.

Her you go Brive, maybe you would like to watch this entire thing and the apologize for creating this monster.

Brive1987
.
.
Posts: 16627
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:16 am
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#280

Post by Brive1987 » Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:17 pm

free thoughtpolice wrote:
Brive1987 wrote:
free thoughtpolice wrote: From wikipedo:
Prisonplanet.com, a website operated by American conspiracy theorist Alex Jones

CFB is happy to criticise shit he won’t watch. Maybe you could rise above this standard and explain the evil and warped POV in this clip ....

If I could, I’d force the soft left to watch this in the spirit of force marching Germans through concentration camps.

You, however, position yourself to be appalled.

:doh:

https..://youtu.be/Rfi2O9yTCKI
His comedy is about as funny as Hannah Gadsby. It's not, and like Gadsby not even watchable. Of course you know that the mentally ill left like Gadsby and Smollet are the products of the excesses of the alt-lite, alt right, and the neonazis which are all pretty much the same bunch.*
Who are the "soft left" you want to force to watch this tripe? You talking about me? Are you blaming me and my "type" for the behavior of this stupid cunt?
If you could you would force me to watch this sneering, bullshit propaganda?
* Using the logic that if all lefties are the same all righties are the same.

Her you go Brive, maybe you would like to watch this entire thing and the apologize for creating this monster.
https..://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbnwjKeBy48
So you didn’t find any specific content to opppose. That’s interesting.

So you segue to a critique of humour :doh:
You blame the existence of the SJW left on conservative reaction videos :bjarte:
And you whine at the prospect of the soft left being required to confront their insane hypocrisy :think:

You disappoint me.

* Soft left being modern day social-liberals.

Brive1987
.
.
Posts: 16627
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:16 am
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#281

Post by Brive1987 » Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:19 pm

CaptainFluffyBunny wrote:
Brive1987 wrote:
free thoughtpolice wrote: From wikipedo:
Prisonplanet.com, a website operated by American conspiracy theorist Alex Jones
CFB is happy to criticise shit he won’t watch. Maybe you could rise above this standard and explain the evil and warped POV in this clip ....

If I could, I’d force the soft left to watch this in the spirit of force marching Germans through concentration camps.

You, however, position yourself to be appalled.

:doh:

CFB has taken a moral stand against giving slimy nutbags views. Same reason we go to archived versions of FtBs. CFB also doesn't have the time to watch nutbags, CFB has a life. CFB will also point out that you often comment on things without having read the article. Which goes much faster than a ten minute video. Thus says CFB, may the farts of angels loft him through his blessed day.
Brive has spend more time dissecting articles and reports presented like bones by CFB than has occurred in reverse.

Simple as that.

free thoughtpolice
.
.
Posts: 10269
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:27 pm
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#282

Post by free thoughtpolice » Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:57 pm

Brive wrote:
So you didn’t find any specific content to opppose. That’s interesting.

So you segue to a critique of humour :doh:
You blame the existence of the SJW left on conservative reaction videos :bjarte:
And you whine at the prospect of the soft left being required to confront their insane hypocrisy :think:

You disappoint me.

* Soft left being modern day social-liberals.
I watched less than a minute of PJ Twatson so instead of pointing out his stupid remarks I responded to what you wrote instead. I should have made that clearer. mea culpa
You wanted me to waste my time watching that irritating asshole Watson. My criticism of of his unwatchable "humor" was to explain why I didn't bother. I hope you watched the entire Gadsby video. If you do that and give me a detailed critique I promise to hold my nose and watch all 9 minutes of the Watson video and tell you what I think about it.
You blame the existence of the SJW left on conservative reaction videos :bjarte:
If you would have looked at the asterix it linked to a footnote explaining that this was just mocking the way you keep blaming everyone to the left of Gunga Din for the excesses of the extreme loony left. Sorry I didn't make that clearer.
I asked whether you thought I was a member of the "soft" left which i guess is a category of left leaning people that you just made up. I'm not clear on exactly what you mean by the "social" left either. Does that include me? I want to know that if you were to get the power to live out your sick authoritarian fantasies you would force me at gunpoint to watch the same loony conspiracy theorists that have been filling your head with all their goofy propaganda.

free thoughtpolice
.
.
Posts: 10269
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:27 pm
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#283

Post by free thoughtpolice » Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:00 pm

correction:
If you would have looked at the asterix it linked to a footnote explaining that this was just mocking the way you keep blaming everyone to the left of Gunga Din for the excesses of the extreme loony left
should read:
this was mocking the way you blame the excesses of the extreme right as being an understandable reactions to the excesses of the left i.e. Brievik.



Brive1987
.
.
Posts: 16627
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:16 am
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#286

Post by Brive1987 » Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:43 am

I don’t go in for Alex at all. Listened only so far as Faith making standard pro gun criticisms of a possible move against Canadian handguns. Maybe you have time stamps of more problematic segments?

I find this whole railroading amusing. I’ve acknowledged Faith is a zealot. That she is some sort of uber catholic and brings that baggage to her exposition. And that she has naively sought to force her own framing on her questionable non PC actions - without success and with lots of blowback.

She is (was) at her best evangelising narratives which lay outside the Overton Window, using facts and figures. And bringing a passion to an arena normally marked by calculated brand.

But she isn’t a Nazi or a white supremacist or a member of the alt right.

We may have to agree to disagree.

free thoughtpolice
.
.
Posts: 10269
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:27 pm
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#287

Post by free thoughtpolice » Tue Feb 26, 2019 4:57 pm

Wait a minute! Brive's favorite news source and totally trustworthy lib triggerer PJ Watson hasn't followed up on the bigscoop that the Democratic Party was part of the Smollet hoax.
https://www.infowars.com/report-fbi-inv ... ed-attack/
I wonder what happened? Did the deep state put a gag on him? Or was it a hoax that in the sense that Watson just invented a rumor or knowingly repeated one and then just dropped it . Of course, he knew that his gullible audience will sort of half remember the baseless accusation and totally forget that there was supposed to be a follow up. The same drooling knuckledraggers that accuse the Lame Stream Media as being some kind of conspiracy to trick the sheeple.


Lsuoma
Fascist Tit
Posts: 10476
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:58 pm
Location: Punggye-ri
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#289

Post by Lsuoma » Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:25 pm

This doesn't bode well:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47400679
Image1.png
(76.1 KiB) Downloaded 65 times

Brive1987
.
.
Posts: 16627
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:16 am
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#290

Post by Brive1987 » Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:08 pm

Lsuoma wrote: This doesn't bode well:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47400679

Ima...png
The poor old gaffers are to Michelle Pfeiffer as the Govt is to John Malkovich.


Brive1987
.
.
Posts: 16627
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:16 am
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#291

Post by Brive1987 » Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:13 pm

free thoughtpolice wrote: Wait a minute! Brive's favorite news source and totally trustworthy lib triggerer PJ Watson hasn't followed up on the bigscoop that the Democratic Party was part of the Smollet hoax.
https://www.infowars.com/report-fbi-inv ... ed-attack/
I wonder what happened? Did the deep state put a gag on him? Or was it a hoax that in the sense that Watson just invented a rumor or knowingly repeated one and then just dropped it . Of course, he knew that his gullible audience will sort of half remember the baseless accusation and totally forget that there was supposed to be a follow up. The same drooling knuckledraggers that accuse the Lame Stream Media as being some kind of conspiracy to trick the sheeple.
You are way more invested in the personality minutiae than I could ever be.

If someone says something I agree with I nod. If they say something I disagree with I consider it and label it “dumb” or “interesting”. If they keep saying dumb things I move on.

Brive1987
.
.
Posts: 16627
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:16 am
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#292

Post by Brive1987 » Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:14 pm

I keep listening to you out of habit. :cdc: :)

Brive1987
.
.
Posts: 16627
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:16 am
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#293

Post by Brive1987 » Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:40 pm

Mike Carlton is a Chardonnay Socialist from way back. He and Fitzsimons have really creamed their jeans over Pell.

They are principally interested in deconstructing traditional structures. Fitz is also head of the Republican movement which is waiting impatiently for Queen Liz to die.


Brive1987
.
.
Posts: 16627
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:16 am
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#294

Post by Brive1987 » Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:43 pm

Pity the dude is a Nazi. Otherwise I could agree with him.


free thoughtpolice
.
.
Posts: 10269
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:27 pm
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#295

Post by free thoughtpolice » Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:34 am

Brive1987 wrote: Pity the dude is a Nazi. Otherwise I could agree with him.

More evidence that the far right and fundamentalist muslims have a lot in common.
Interesting that you seem to think it is a bad thing to teach kids not to hate gay people.

Brive1987
.
.
Posts: 16627
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:16 am
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#296

Post by Brive1987 » Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:30 pm

free thoughtpolice wrote:
Brive1987 wrote: Pity the dude is a Nazi. Otherwise I could agree with him.

https..://twitter.com/markacollett/status/1102821208184233985?s=21
More evidence that the far right and fundamentalist muslims have a lot in common.
Interesting that you seem to think it is a bad thing to teach kids not to hate gay people.
These specialised programs are sourced from specialised interest groups with specialised agendas.

We had the same problem with our “safe schools” programme. Even the ABC (pre it’s total liberalisation) saw the issue.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-03-24/ ... ic/7272932

free thoughtpolice
.
.
Posts: 10269
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:27 pm
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#297

Post by free thoughtpolice » Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:25 pm

I haven't seen the material they are teaching the kids, but if it is telling kids not to bully or discriminate against gays I think it is a good thing.
If religious and other bigots don't like it tough. Do you think it is wrong to teach kids not to hold bigoted views against gays and others?

CaptainFluffyBunny
.
.
Posts: 7553
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:39 am
Location: Somewhere in the pipes
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#298

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:21 pm

free thoughtpolice wrote:
Brive1987 wrote: Pity the dude is a Nazi. Otherwise I could agree with him.

More evidence that the far right and fundamentalist muslims have a lot in common.
Interesting that you seem to think it is a bad thing to teach kids not to hate gay people.
Generally I find that the more religiously conservative find that they are simply jealous of the deference paid to Muslims, as opposed to the general hostility that many governments and media give Christians. Their goals are very similar, but Christians have lost traction.

free thoughtpolice
.
.
Posts: 10269
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:27 pm
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#299

Post by free thoughtpolice » Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:10 pm

CaptainFluffyBunny wrote:
Generally I find that the more religiously conservative find that they are simply jealous of the deference paid to Muslims, as opposed to the general hostility that many governments and media give Christians. Their goals are very similar, but Christians have lost traction.
Cults, including the established cults we call religion find that an important way to control people is to control their sexuality. Jim Jones, David Koresh and their like would decide who can marry who, even decide to take follower's wives when they felt like it. Muhammad did all of that and more.
Christians and muslims both detest sex education because they don't want their sheep making informed decisions. If they decide to practice contraception they are committing a crime by not producing more followers.
To that end, the christians are likely somewhat jealous they don't have power of controlling their kids as rigidly as in the good old days.

Brive1987
.
.
Posts: 16627
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:16 am
Contact:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#300

Post by Brive1987 » Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:52 pm

Public sex education typically removes the interaction from a moral context. Commonly it rewraps it with 🌈 rainbow paper - pushing a new decoupled morality.

I understand this is deriguour for laissez faire liberals. However Church mission statements are about interpreting individual action against a specific collective worldview. Their protest is them simply doing their job.

It’s silly to create an equivalence between all religions. Islam <> CofE <> American evangelical. However all churches, doing their job, should push back. Why Islam is doing that in England is a tragic mystery. And another story altogether.

Post Reply