The Ethnostate Thread!

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Brive1987
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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#61

Post by Brive1987 » Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:14 pm

Kirbmarc wrote:
Lsuoma wrote: FFS, Gold-boy - he LIVES in an ethnostate...
No, I don't. There are plenty of non-white people living in Switzerland.
Name one.

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#62

Post by Brive1987 » Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:19 pm

Kirbmarc wrote:
You're kind of obsessing about me, dude, you cite my name in half of your posts. That ain't healthy. I'm just a random stranger on the Internet. If I am your nemesis your life is pretty boring.

We don't really know each other. To me you're just a username and an avatar on a small forum, just like me to you. You seem to feel some nostalgia for your past, as it happens to anyone. I think you might take it too far, but at the end of the day you're just a person with some ideas I disagree with on the Internet. Big deal.

The problem with the right-wing shift of this place isn't a personal one. You might be the one who's posting more videos of right-wing propagandists, but others appreciate them too, or agree with them. Which is concerning to me since this is allegedly a skeptic forum. It's like being concerned with the SocJus infestation of atheist/skeptic spaces. It's a matter of a general mindset, of a zeitgeist, not a personal feud.

Lauren Southern, or Faith Goldy, or Brittany Pettibone, on the other hand, are FAR more influential than me or you. And they're spreading (willingly or not) ideas that shade into neo-fascism, into justifications for authoritarianism, for discriminatory behavior based on ethnicity, for dismantling some liberal democratic institutions, on very flimsy basis, and with a big dose of exaggerations, simplifications, essentialism, and collective guilt. This isn't a good thing.

That's pretty much it. Everything else is smoke and mirrors.
I see then you didn’t get my spectrum. Everything morphs into everything else. Your ideas morph into SJWism for instance. Yet you are not a SJW.

See what I did there?

Your taint needs cleansing because you laid wet liberal pipes for too long without using a doggy bad for pickup.

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#63

Post by free thoughtpolice » Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:39 pm

Brive: What's a wet liberal? Is this a UN thing?

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#64

Post by Brive1987 » Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:55 pm

There is no firm definition in play. This time it’s purely subjective descriptive.
Historically, English public-school slang described as "wet" someone judged to be weak, feeble or "soppy".[6] Within the political context, the term was used by Thatcher's supporters as both as a noun and as an adjective to characterise people or policies which Thatcher would have considered weak or "wet".[6]
“Soft” within a given context.

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#65

Post by Brive1987 » Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:03 pm

MarcusAu wrote: Does the alt-light even have thought (as opposed to 'thot') leaders or is it getting it's philosopy as trickle-down from the alt-right?
I’d place brexit and Trump fervour on the alt lite spectrum. It’s bigger than Southern.

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#66

Post by Kirbmarc » Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:11 pm

Brive1987 wrote: I see then you didn’t get my spectrum. Everything morphs into everything else. Your ideas morph into SJWism for instance. Yet you are not a SJW.

See what I did there?

Your taint needs cleansing because you laid wet liberal pipes for too long without using a doggy bad for pickup.
Except for the fact that my ideas are simply Enlightenment values and civic nationalism, which the SocJus deems to be "white supremacy". The people who express ideas I deem interesting (Steven Pinker, Sam Harris, Cathy Young, Bret Weinstein, Jonathan Haidt) are ferociously attacked by the SocJus, as if they were Nazis. Even Bernie Sanders is called "sympathetic to white supremacy" for suggesting that racial quotas shouldn't be the main goal of politics. The philosophers whose ideas I pick for writing my posts, even if I don't always cite them, are part of the Enlightenment/liberal school: Mill, Locke, Hume, Popper, the second period of Wittgenstein...

I've routinely pointed out WHERE the SocJus comes from, and it's from a philosophical tradition of REJECTION of the Enlightenment, which started with Nietzsche and Heidegger (both heavily anti-Enlightenment) and influence the Frankfurt School (especially Marcuse), and was converted into a philosophical school through Lacan, Derrida, Deleuze and Guattari, and into an anti-science and anti-Enlightenment defense of dogma and of irrationality as freedom to express the true self by Feyerabend.

In turn those anti-Enlighenment tendencies were schematized and justified by Standpoint Theory, by Strong Objectivity, by the program of Radical Feminism, by the the foundamentals Critical Race Theory, which originated the memes which have been spread as part of the SocJus ("mansplaining and white-splaining" "lived experience" "racism is prejudice plus power" "colorblindness is racism/gender-blindness is sexism" "everything is a social construct" etc.)

To say nothing of the "gender spectrum" and "masculinity is toxic" tangent, initiated by fervent apologists for irrationalism and bad statistics like Anne Fausto-Sterling, or by lunatics like Judith Butler and Andrea Dworkins, whose works have influenced pretty much the entire field of "gender studies", which are full of science denialism, sophistry, word games, and conspiracy theories.

So no, my ideas are the diametric opposite of the SocJus in epistemological terms, even though I'm not defending "traditions" or religions.

On the other hand Southern, Goldy, etc. have ideas that descend from the same authors and philosophical currents that influence the alt-right: Schmidt, Evola, Guenon, Alain de Benoist, which also derive from the anti-Enlightenment thought of Nietzsche and Heidegger. Peterson, a darling of the "alt-lite" is heavily influenced by Jung, who filtered the same sources about myths and archetypes that also influenced Nietzsche. Dugin, who Southern promoted as someone who "speaks to the soul of Russia" and a peer of Peterson, is explicitly recommending Guenon, Evola and de Benoist. Richard Spencer cites heavily from Evola and Guenon, along with other writers like Charles Maurras (the "magic blood" thing is from Evola, for example).

Breitbart and his former head Steven Bannon, who influenced Trump's campaign and messages, comes from the same philosophical schools: he also cited from Evola, Guennon, Heidegger, and Maurras.

Leaving aside their philosophical origin, the "alt-lite" and the alt-right aren't exactly fighting each other. Southern has praised Spencer, Pettibone has worked with Tara McCarthy, Jean-Francois Gariepy has been the mediator between the "ethnic nationalists" and the "white nationalists", Pettibone dates and promotes Sellner, Sargon has amicably interviewed and largely agreed with the "white nationalist" Jared Taylor, of the explicitly race-focus American Renaissance.

Moving away from the Youtube/internet circles, Steve Bannon, former chief strategist for Donald Trump, and whose ideas have shaped the Trump campaign, has promoted through Breitbart both Milo Yannopoulis (who has worked and attended parties with Richard Spencer) and by and large the entire "alt-right".

The Trump campaign and presidency has been one which has at the very least flirted with the alt-right, from the anti-immigration messages rooted in the ideas about a foreign threat, rather than (for example) on managing the immigration flux for practical reasons without demonizing the immigrants, to the reluctance of Trump to condemn the "Unite the Right" rally (headed by Richard Spencer among others), to the infamous "people from shithole countries" scandal and how it's fostering an idea about racial/essential inadequacy of some ethnicities, which shouldn't be let in in the US.

Similarly, why Brexit is a more complex phenomenon, which also had economic causes, and criticism of the European Union on political and sociological elements as parts of its appeal, there's certainly been an overlap between the alt-right and the idea that thanks to the exit from the EU the UK will have control over who's let in and who's not, and so could discriminate according to ethnicity.

So on one end we the SocJus which rejects the CORE PRINCIPLES of liberal democracy (freedom of speech, presumption of innocence, lack of identitarian disparity before the law, etc.) in favor of an EXPLICITLY identity based, anti-Enlightenment philosophy that seeks to "level the playing field" at ALL COSTS, sees all disparities and differences as a social construct due to prejudice, and wishes to do away with liberal democracy to deconstruct "masculinity" and "whiteness", and install a system where the Oppressed are exalted and rewarded as a payback for past oppression, while Oppressors are punished for the past crimes and simply for being part of a collective which is deemed to have more unwarranted and completely socially constructed advantages.

On the other end we have an identitarian project based on preserving and enforcing traditions, religion, group identity over Enlightenment principles, to promote the primacy of "ethno-cultural" mesh over common rights, to exclude or include people among those who are accepted within society according not to their behavior, but to their origin and to the culture they were raised in.

The degrees of how much who your ancestors were matters is not the same across the alt-"lite" and alt-right: Spencer is a supporter of the One Drop policy and so is Tara McCarthy, so if you have a known non-white ancestor you're out of the White Club, while Pettibone or Southern are less strict. But the idea that societies aren't made up of law, principles and institutions, but by shared identity, is common for the entire "movement", and never contested.

So no, my ideas don't "morph" into SJWism, even though the SJWs might adopt some of the language of the Enlightenment ("human rights" "equality" ") as part of their propaganda, because the SocJus is INTRINSICALLY not about equal treatment for equal behavior, but about payback and levelling to account for past crimes and present stratification, which are deemed to be inherently oppressive and social constructed, and are based on the predominance of the subjective evaluation of the Oppressed, who are believed to have a Stronger Objectivity, to have a "special knowledge" that goes beyond what is verifiable.

On the other hand Southern and Pettibone AGREE with the general alt-right concept that shared identity is what really matters, beyond laws, beyond values, beyond institutions, and that identity cannot be shared with those who are too different from what is deemed to be the norm. There might be disagreements within the "alts" (lite or right) about WHO is "too different" to be let in, but there's no disagreement that the line is drawn according to identitarian standards.

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#67

Post by Kirbmarc » Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:37 pm

Basically:

SocJus: all differences between the averages of social groups are due to oppression, which is a social construct based on identities, and so they must be do away with at any cost. There's a hierarchy of different shades of socially constructed identitarian oppression according to which one must evaluate all differences. The ultimate goal is a society where those who are deemed to be oppressed due to their identity are exalted and rewarded just for existing while having been oppressed, while those who are deemed to be oppressors due to their identity are punished and/or forced to change their behavior and beliefs in order to reward the oppressed.

Alt-"lite" and alt-right: societies are based on shared identity, anyone who's not part of the collective mesh of identities is an intruder, who can at best be tolerated, at worst they must leave. Shared identity is all that matters, and is defended through imposing traditional values onto society, whose aim is to replicate and carry forth shared identity itself. The ultimate goal is a society where the shared identity is what really matters, and where intruders are forced to leave or to be subjected to lots of restrictions.

Liberal/Enlightenment: societies are based on shared institutions, which are based on shared values. People are different, but they should have equal opportunity to be judged according to their behavior, not according to their identity, and to have access to a baseline of common needs. Injustices are a matter of some people being barred from achieving what they can, or from getting what they deserve, according to whatever reason that is not based on behavior. Punishments and rewards are based on behavior as well. The ultimate goal is a society where what really matters is one's personal behavior, one's actions, and institutions and values should be geared around allowing people to use their skills at the best of their abilities in a way that does not infringe over other people's rights.

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#68

Post by zou3gou3 » Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:41 pm

Brive1987 wrote:
Kirbmarc wrote:
Lsuoma wrote: FFS, Gold-boy - he LIVES in an ethnostate...
No, I don't. There are plenty of non-white people living in Switzerland.
Name one.
Tina Turner.

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#69

Post by MarcusAu » Sat Jun 16, 2018 12:02 am

Brive1987 wrote:
Kirbmarc wrote:
Lsuoma wrote: FFS, Gold-boy - he LIVES in an ethnostate...
No, I don't. There are plenty of non-white people living in Switzerland.
Name one.
Tina Turner

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#70

Post by MarcusAu » Sat Jun 16, 2018 12:02 am

:nin:

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#71

Post by MarcusAu » Sat Jun 16, 2018 12:12 am

My posting appears to be redundant.

I guess we don't need another hero.

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#72

Post by Brive1987 » Sat Jun 16, 2018 12:56 am

zou3gou3 wrote:
Brive1987 wrote:
Kirbmarc wrote:
Lsuoma wrote: FFS, Gold-boy - he LIVES in an ethnostate...
No, I don't. There are plenty of non-white people living in Switzerland.
Name one.
Tina Turner.
I was trying to get Kirb to self dox.

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#73

Post by free thoughtpolice » Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:37 am

I've decided to do some research and tune in to the BNN (Brive News Network). Turns out Faith and Lauren were right! Richard Spencer and friends have some pretty sound philosophy. :P

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#74

Post by Brive1987 » Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:07 am

Sounded like a Sargon beer and shit giggles session. To be honest I can’t think of an American right winger that was credible. Probably because Americans are, by default, wacko right wing in a buffalo wing and bbq sauce kind of way.

And that’s just the Democrats.

Goldy’s support for the yanks was more relief they were getting their heads out of crap non issues (JQ and anti women) to try and consider what they really stood for. Which was

At least for a day.
I’ve had a lot of folks on Twitter — not even from the alt-right, I think a lot of folks even from the alt-lite, at least, spend enough time online to know what’s been going on and to see the rumblings of what I take to be to be a movement, and last night, at least to my knowledge, it came out last night: AltRight.com was advertising a — what did they call it? — a Charlottesville Statement, this 20-point, kind of a mixture of, like, Martin Luther’s thesises [sic] meets the French Revolution’s Tennis Court Oath.

“It was 20 points around which they could all just rally: everything from race, the JQ [Jewish Question] — which is of course, is something the alt-right spends a lot of time talking about — economics, women and sex, globalism. And they just had a few sentences under each discussing their stance. And I think it’s kind of interesting because of the fact that there has been some, there certainly are some points of contention within the alt-right. Some people who spend more time, say, focusing on the JQ, some people who are, you know, more respect women as opposed to, like, anti-feminists to the point of being, let’s say, anti-woman to a degree.

“It was interesting to see a real consolidation of just one idea under all of these subheadings to the larger alt-right umbrella.”
Of course this was pre her Xmas purge and rebirth as a Daughter of Canada. 🇨🇦

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#75

Post by MarcusAu » Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:53 am

Has nothing swayed you from your course O Brive?
Can you be certain that the song of the sirens has not caused you to drift rightwards (away from your own fair Penelope)?
Are you a constant where the world tumbles and changes about you?
Or is it that conflict with No One has changed your thinking?

Ah fair well - both beloved and cursed of the gods...

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#76

Post by Brive1987 » Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:47 am

That is beautiful.

Thank you.

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#77

Post by Kirbmarc » Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:05 am

Brive1987 wrote: Ethnicity (and race) work better for groups than for individuals. My concern has always been for the ‘essential character’ (a term no less or more loose than other constructs) that determines national identity. And against the pomo forces demanding deconstruction of same. In whose camp I place yourself and, at a more extreme level and with different motivations, SJWs.

I don’t like “ethnostate” as “in the interests” runs the gamut from Swiss National and canton concerns, through to current day Poland and into Nazi Germany.

Your continued use of the term annoys me because you never made it clear where in a given post you were placing the needle. In fact it changed according to your need.

In Australia the term would refer to a 1970s, 1980s state quite different to Hungary the Walloons or France.

Alt-lite are making strong demographic based arguments and arguments around structures which are part of the deconstruction process. Liberals aren’t.

If you haven’t the capacity (or desire) to approach these alt people in a considered fashion and come to your own conclusions, well tough.
OK, I'll bite.

What exactly is the "essential character" that determines national identity? Is it laws? Language? Cuisine? History? National pride? Civic values? All of this? Something else entirely?

Is it acquired at birth? Is it learnt? Does it change through time? Why is it important? Is it specific to an ethnicity, or extendable to more than one? Where does one draw the line? Does a highly multi-ethnic country like the United States have an "essential character" that is shared by all of its citizens?

You accuse me of never making clear where I was placing the needle. Fine, why don't you place it yourself? Define the terms, then we'll talk.

The alt-lite people aren't making any argument besides "lots of people from non-European countries are moving to Europe and other countries which had a majority of people of European descent, and that's tragic". It's hard to "place the needle" because they don't place it themselves.

Lauren Southern, for example, seems to be all about "defending the west" one day, then goes to give a platform to Dugin, who wants to break the "west" apart and wants an Eurasian Empire, which is based on a completely different philosophical doctrine about nations. Mark Collett sees a non-white woman playing Joan D'Arc as being a theft of "white history", which from the perspective of "shared culture" doesn't make much sense. Brittany Pettibone rants about the "globalist dissolution of cultures" one day, then meets and greets Tara McCarthy and supports her "one drop" racial policies the next.

So it's pretty hard to tell what these people want, and what they're talking about. They're not placing the needle anywhere, and I'm expected to do it on my own. I'm expected to approach people with no clear idea about what they're doing, and who have no qualms about associating and partnering with people who support fascism, or racial identitarianism, and never associate their ideas with the people they CHOOSE to promote or to praise, while they themselves seem never to draw any line between their vague arguments and the more extreme ideas you see as defamatory when they're associated to you or them.

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#78

Post by Kirbmarc » Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:43 am

Again, what exactly is the objective of the "alt-lite" folks is not easy to tell:

do they want to defend Enlightenment values (which are sometimes called "western values") or religions and "traditions"?

do they care about specific ethnic groups, or a more general "white heritage"?

are their aims cultural, political, social, or a combination of three?

do they want countries which place more value on integration and assimilation, and limit immigration according to pragmatic concerns?

do they want a complete stop of immigration, and to "transfer" immigrants in country out if it?

do they want a concept of citizenship based on ethnic origin? How do they base their concept of ethnicity?

The pundits and Youtubers don't really seem to know, and change their mind very frequently about those issues. The only thing they seem to have in common is that a) immigration of people from non-European countries to Europe and other "white majority countries" is "out of control" and b) it will bring forth the "death" or "decline" of the "west". But again, there are no specifics, everything is left up in the air as to what they exactly mean by this. They show charts about variations in the fluxes of immigration, and that's supposed to be enough.

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#79

Post by Kirbmarc » Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:03 am

A relevant article

Apparently Donald Trump's electorate is motivated, at least in part, by "White Extinction Anxiety", and they have a demographic argument that the US are becoming less "white" and more "Hispanic". :bjarte:

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#80

Post by Brive1987 » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:31 pm

I have replied here viewtopic.php?p=469036#p469036

Kirb, you forgot to indicate whether the demography underpinning The Trump concern is accurate or not. The implications of change are a seperate discussion.

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#81

Post by Brive1987 » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:35 pm

Kirbmarc wrote: A relevant article

Apparently Donald Trump's electorate is motivated, at least in part, by "White Extinction Anxiety", and they have a demographic argument that the US are becoming less "white" and more "Hispanic". :bjarte:
Buchanan mentioned “political, social, racial, ethnic — character of the country”

It was the author who helpfully characterised this as “Make no mistake here, Buchanan is talking about protecting white dominance, white culture, white majorities and white power”

And it was Kirb who lapped it up. Pipe layer indeed.

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#82

Post by free thoughtpolice » Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:30 pm



:lol: I apologize for the annoying rap around 2:00 .
Do you think she does collagen injections?

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#83

Post by MarcusAu » Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:25 am

Ethnostate.
Life would be great, in an ethnostate.
Let's cooperate, and build an ethnostate.
You can congregate, in an ethnostate.
It's a place to create, in our ethnostate.
Don't misegenate, join the ethnostate.
It's our racial fate, to build an ethnostate.
A safe place to hate, in our ethnostate.
Where white folks mate, in our ethnostate.
We can all relate, in an ethnostate.
I'm going to masterbate, to an ethnostate.
Better not wait, let's build, an ethnostate.
Ethnostate.

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#84

Post by Brive1987 » Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:26 am

She almost certainly does. She should stop and put back on a few pounds

Is that the weirdest mashup that could be managed over the several years she has been active? Not impressed. We didn't even get her crusader call outside the church of the nativity.

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#85

Post by Kirbmarc » Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:17 am

Brive1987 wrote:
Kirbmarc wrote: A relevant article

Apparently Donald Trump's electorate is motivated, at least in part, by "White Extinction Anxiety", and they have a demographic argument that the US are becoming less "white" and more "Hispanic". :bjarte:
Buchanan mentioned “political, social, racial, ethnic — character of the country”

It was the author who helpfully characterised this as “Make no mistake here, Buchanan is talking about protecting white dominance, white culture, white majorities and white power”

And it was Kirb who lapped it up. Pipe layer indeed.
Dude, Buchanan is a known race-baiter. He mentioned the word "racial" for a reason.

The US has had several waves of immigration which was deemed to be The End of America as They Knew It. Hell, Buchanan is Irish, and Irish people were deemed to be the Rowdy Element Which Won't Fit. Now they're the nativists. :bjarte: Italian Americans like Giuliani or Pompeo, German Americans with Slavic Wives like Donnie Trump, Greeks like Faith Goldy, they were all deemed to be The End of the US at some point in US history.

Now those demographics are boring milquetoast at their best, rabid nativist at their worst.

Using the term "whites" is an over-simplification, which is why I put it in scare quotes. I'm pretty sure that in the UK there are similar arguments about the Poles, while the Poles are WhiteyMcWhiterson in 'Murica. And in Poland the Poles are pretty heavy on nativism, too. Hell, in Africa some tribes are blaming everything on the immigrants from other tribes and other countries. Nobody is white there, but nativism still exist.

It's undeniable that the alt-right/nativist movement is about projecting apocalyptic fears of "replacement", of "nothing being the same anymore" due to the influx of immigrants. And sure, I'm no Woke Utopian, so immigration DOES cause issues, and CANNOT be without limits. I'm the first who thinks that immigrants NEED to assimilate to a degree, and those who actively don't are playing with fire, especially in the case of islam, when some nurture dreams of taking over the host country. Also there are logistic problems, education problems, economic problems.

Immigration isn't a dream, and perhaps accepting that it's not dream-like is what the reasonable left and the reasonable right should do (Bernie Sanders of all people was discussing rational issues with immigration before the current shenanigans happened).

HOWEVER the far-right isn't having any of that, no matter how you try to build your "reasonable" alt-right. Just like the SocJus they're making it ALL about ethnicity, ALL about group identity. They're stoking fears of a White Genocide, they're not about assimilating the new arrivals, and trying to manage the flux, they're about inciting ethnic rage and ethnic anxiety. They're deliberately trolling the SocJus to give them extreme takes that they can use to further more scaremongering.

They're not listening to reason, they just want to capitalize on conspiracy theories about "globalists" who want to kill the white race, or on pure tribalism, or on the idea that the Hispanics are going to "kill the spirit" of the US, or "taking over white jobs". It's the same kind of arguments that were used against the Italians, the Greeks, the Slavic people, the Jews, the Irish, etc.

The SocJus is more than happy to pitch in with their moronic takes on "cultural appropriation", on how White People Are Evil and Ruining Everything, on how Everything Is White Supremacy, which are great fodder for Breitbart, Fox News and other right-wing apocalypse mongers.

All rational discussions about issues and benefits of immigration, on how to accommodate and assimilate new arrivals within the institutions of the host country, on how to manage the fluxes, are shut down in a confrontation between those who claim that immigrants are devils who are going to kill you, rob you blind and rape your daughter, and those who claim that immigrants are the Superior Victims of White Supremacy, and all attempts to foster integration are only a prelude to genocide.

You apparently think that the far-right is the solution, at least in its superficially "cultural" explanation, and that their arguments based on the "character of the country" are more rational than the Spencerian "magic bloodlines". Fine, believe whatever you want. I'm not going to change your mind, and all rational discourses on this topic are pretty much over, since you can't really quantify this "character" of the nation, or how immigrants are going to Destroy It Forever.

Just don't be surprised if Pat Buchanan turns out to be talking with Dick Spencer about how a white ethnostate is awesome. :bjarte:

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#86

Post by Brive1987 » Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:09 am

Buchanan is a boring old anti Semite. That article though was simply out to fan the flames of hysteria.

Re “since you can't really quantify this "character" of the nation, or how immigrants are going to Destroy It Forever. ”

You really aren’t even trying. I have wasted my time. Your argument is that National identities based on shared heritage don’t exist. Pathetic.


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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#87

Post by Brive1987 » Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:15 am

Kirb, I’d also point out you are more race obsessed than many of the alts and you have an unhealthy fixation on the extreme wing. Trump wasn’t elected by nazis or “deplorables”.

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#88

Post by Brive1987 » Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:20 am

MarcusAu wrote: Ethnostate.
Life would be great, in an ethnostate.
Let's cooperate, and build an ethnostate.
You can congregate, in an ethnostate.
It's a place to create, in our ethnostate.
Don't misegenate, join the ethnostate.
It's our racial fate, to build an ethnostate.
A safe place to hate, in our ethnostate.
Where white folks mate, in our ethnostate.
We can all relate, in an ethnostate.
I'm going to masterbate, to an ethnostate.
Better not wait, let's build, an ethnostate.
Ethnostate.
The ethno-song has been done better.


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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#89

Post by MarcusAu » Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:36 am

You've not been keeping up...


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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#90

Post by d4m10n » Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:20 am

Came across this tidbit on the Twitter machine just the other day:
Whereas "invasive species" are by definition harmful to the biodiversity of ecosystems into which they have been introduced, one cannot reasonably assume people who cross borders are similarly harmful to the nations into which they are introduced, especially given the research on point.

One would probably need to think of (illegal) immigrants as vermin in order to make this analogical leap without looking, but this interpretation seems too uncharitable to seriously contemplate.

So my question here is whether Mykeru's analogy works, and if so, how so? What stands in for biodiversity (the prime environmental desideratum under threat) here? What stands in for invasiveness?

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#91

Post by Kirbmarc » Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:53 am

Brive1987 wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:15 am
Kirb, I’d also point out you are more race obsessed than many of the alts A and you have an unhealthy fixation on the extreme wing. Trump wasn’t elected by nazis or “deplorables”. B
A) Seriously?
Yeah, I'm the one obsessed with "blood and soil". :twatson:

B) I posted the link to showcase a feature of the nativist propaganda which was also shared by the alt-right. Trump ran on a nativist platform. Not everyone who voted Trump is a nativist, but there's an overlap in messages which is concerning.

I'm sure most Trump voters aren't Richard Spencer fans. But the messages, the themes which resonated in the Trump campaign present some similarities with some of the stuff that you posted, the Southern videos or the Pettibone blogposts. It's about "defending your culture/ethnicity" from "invasion". The ways you can use to defend yourself vary, as the exact nature of "culture" and "ethnicity", but there's a thread there, a "family resemblance" to quote Wittgenstein.

Trump isn't Hitler, but he's using some propaganda which has shaded, and is more and more shading, into some of the themes that were also employed by fascist regimes. Laying pipes, if you want.

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#92

Post by Kirbmarc » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:44 am

"Blood and soil" = nothing to do with ancestry/"race".

"Shared ethnic identity" = nothing to do with ancestry/"race".

"White genocide", sorry "the Great Replacement" = nothing to do with ancestry/"race".

"They will change our racial identity" = nothing to do with ancestry/"race".

A video of black people who are "the end of France" = nothing to do with ancestry/"race".

Yeah, the alt-righters definitely never ever focus on race. It's just my personal obsession. :bjarte:

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#93

Post by Brive1987 » Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:31 pm

d4m10n wrote: Came across this tidbit on the Twitter machine just the other day:

[twee.][/tweet]

Whereas "invasive species" are by definition harmful to the biodiversity of ecosystems into which they have been introduced, one cannot reasonably assume people who cross borders are similarly harmful to the nations into which they are introduced, especially given the research on point.

One would probably need to think of (illegal) immigrants as vermin in order to make this analogical leap without looking, but this interpretation seems too uncharitable to seriously contemplate.

So my question here is whether Mykeru's analogy works, and if so, how so? What stands in for biodiversity (the prime environmental desideratum under threat) here? What stands in for invasiveness?
I see he is talking about illegal immigration. Which by definition is “invasive” in that there is no host consent.

I also note that biologically, an invasive species need not be inherently “bad” - it simply needs to disrupt and dominate the previously extant equilibrium.

Are you another Kirb-ite (cultural) National Identity denier? Clearly if you reject the existence of a status quo, then there is nothing to invade. Popular opinion in Hungary and Poland seem to have an opinion on this topic. So too do the Swiss immigration officials and canton voters.
Now, according to 20 Minutes, a woman in the commune of Buchs, Aargau, has had her application rejected by the Gemeinde because of her lack of Swissness, in particular her sports knowledge. Asked to name a typically Swiss sport, she said skiing rather than Swiss wrestling, known as Schwingen or lutte suisse. Another acceptable answer appears to have been the ancient Swiss sport Hornussen.
It also helps to be pro cow-bells.
https://lenews.ch/2017/05/01/anti-cowbe ... -passport/

:lol: :lol:

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#94

Post by Brive1987 » Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:37 pm

Kirbmarc wrote: "Blood and soil" = nothing to do with ancestry/"race".

"Shared ethnic identity" = nothing to do with ancestry/"race".

"White genocide", sorry "the Great Replacement" = nothing to do with ancestry/"race".

"They will change our racial identity" = nothing to do with ancestry/"race".

A video of black people who are "the end of France" = nothing to do with ancestry/"race".

Yeah, the alt-righters definitely never ever focus on race. It's just my personal obsession. :bjarte:
Ummmm I never said the far right weren’t race fixated. I just noted that in any discussion of culture and national identity you don’t become (say) language obsessed, you become race obsessed.

It’s a trait you should be aware of.

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#95

Post by Brive1987 » Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:40 pm

Ie you see this discussion thru the same lens as the looney right.

I will circle the area of the spectrum you obsess over on my diagram, when I have a lazy moment.


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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#97

Post by Kirbmarc » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:15 pm

Brive1987 wrote:
Kirbmarc wrote: "Blood and soil" = nothing to do with ancestry/"race".

"Shared ethnic identity" = nothing to do with ancestry/"race".

"White genocide", sorry "the Great Replacement" = nothing to do with ancestry/"race".

"They will change our racial identity" = nothing to do with ancestry/"race".

A video of black people who are "the end of France" = nothing to do with ancestry/"race".

Yeah, the alt-righters definitely never ever focus on race. It's just my personal obsession. :bjarte:
Ummmm I never said the far right weren’t race fixated. I just noted that in any discussion of culture and national identity you don’t become (say) language obsessed, you become race obsessed.

It’s a trait you should be aware of.
So I take it that you agree with me that Lauren Southern and Generation Identity are far-right and fixated with race.


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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#99

Post by Brive1987 » Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:53 am

Kirbmarc wrote:
Brive1987 wrote:
Kirbmarc wrote: "Blood and soil" = nothing to do with ancestry/"race".

"Shared ethnic identity" = nothing to do with ancestry/"race".

"White genocide", sorry "the Great Replacement" = nothing to do with ancestry/"race".

"They will change our racial identity" = nothing to do with ancestry/"race".

A video of black people who are "the end of France" = nothing to do with ancestry/"race".

Yeah, the alt-righters definitely never ever focus on race. It's just my personal obsession. :bjarte:
Ummmm I never said the far right weren’t race fixated. I just noted that in any discussion of culture and national identity you don’t become (say) language obsessed, you become race obsessed.

It’s a trait you should be aware of.
So I take it that you agree with me that Lauren Southern and Generation Identity are far-right and fixated with race.
No. They are drifting close but are still within the right flank of cultural defense

https://i.imgur.com/qLf5EvE.jpg

Nb you conflate the entire right with your zone of obsession. You lack subtlety on this topic.


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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#101

Post by Kirbmarc » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:28 am

Brive1987 wrote:
Kirbmarc wrote:
Brive1987 wrote:
Kirbmarc wrote: "Blood and soil" = nothing to do with ancestry/"race".

"Shared ethnic identity" = nothing to do with ancestry/"race".

"White genocide", sorry "the Great Replacement" = nothing to do with ancestry/"race".

"They will change our racial identity" = nothing to do with ancestry/"race".

A video of black people who are "the end of France" = nothing to do with ancestry/"race".

Yeah, the alt-righters definitely never ever focus on race. It's just my personal obsession. :bjarte:
Ummmm I never said the far right weren’t race fixated. I just noted that in any discussion of culture and national identity you don’t become (say) language obsessed, you become race obsessed.

It’s a trait you should be aware of.
So I take it that you agree with me that Lauren Southern and Generation Identity are far-right and fixated with race.
No. They are drifting close but are still within the right flank of cultural defense

https://i.imgur.com/qLf5EvE.jpg

Nb you conflate the entire right with your zone of obsession. You lack subtlety on this topic.
I certainly don't conflate Sam Harris with Lauren Southern.

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#102

Post by Kirbmarc » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:45 am

I actually like Sam Harris a lot, while I might disagree with him on more than a few points, and he's not even remotely an alt-righter, even if he sometimes chats with some of them. He calls them out on their bullshit more often than not. He might be naive at times (like when he interviewed Charles Murray) but he's not even center-right, let alone far-right. He's VERY critical of Donald Trump. He's far closer to Steven Pinker or Richard Dawkins than to Tommy Robinson.

Harris and Pinker are smeared as "alt-right" by SocJus liars like Sacha "all is fair" Saeen or Peezee Myers. This doesn't make them as close to the alt-right as you think they are

Indeed, while I don't like him, I don't think that Jordan Peterson is an ethno-identitarian. He's a conservative who loves to LARP Christianity, a William Lane Craig-lite with the clarity of Deepak Chopra, but not a Nazi or laying pipes for them, even if a lot of his fans drift further to the right than he is. He's not worse than most conservative Christians.

I don't even think Southern is a full-on "white nationalist" like Dick Spencer or Tara McCarthy. I think she's just laying pipes to the Nazis with her extreme focus on ethnicity, and with her giving a platform to a fan of fascism like Dugin. Perhaps she thinks she can control the race identitarians for her purposes, perhaps she's just hiding what she actually believes, but she's not one of the "gas the kikes - race war now" types.

And Sargon isn't an ethnic identitarian, either, he's just extremely sloppy and convinced that the right is less dangerous than the SocJus, which has led him to lionize far-right figures like Marie Le Pen.

Both Southern and Sargon also are INCREDIBLY non-nuanced when it comes to "the left". They frequently apply double standards and portray the most extreme SocJus lunatics as being the entire left wing of the spectrum, while they insist that Trump is just misunderstood and the lesser of two evils.

You also apply the same double standards. You DEMAND nuance between the alt-lite and the alt-right but lump together all the critics of the far-right (including the right-wing libertarians of Reason) as "lib-tards".

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#103

Post by Kirbmarc » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:55 am

Basically, if Richard Spencer or Tara Mc Carthy are the New Nazis, Southern and Sargon are the New DVP or the New Franz Von Papen.

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#104

Post by Kirbmarc » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:03 am

Indeed the DVP analogy fits very well:
t was essentially the main body of the old National Liberal Party (mostly its centre and right factions) combined with some of the more moderate elements of the Free Conservative Party and the Economic Union,[13] and was formed in the early days of the Weimar Republic by Stresemann. During the Weimar Republic, it was one of two large liberal parties in Germany, the other being the left-liberal German Democratic Party.

The party was generally thought to represent the interests of the great German industrialists. Its platform stressed Christian family values, secular education, lower tariffs, opposition to welfare spending and agrarian subsidies and hostility to "Marxism" (that is, the Communists, and also the Social Democrats). It only grudgingly accepted the republic, and as such was initially part of the "national opposition" to the Weimar Coalition. However, Stresemann gradually led it into cooperation with the parties of the center and left.

The party wielded an influence on German politics beyond its numbers, as Stresemann was the Weimar Republic's only statesman of international standing. He served as foreign minister continuously from 1923 until his death in 1929 in nine governments (one of which he briefly headed in 1923) ranging from the center-right to the center-left.

Despite Stresemann's international standing, he was never really trusted by his own party, large elements of which never really accepted the republic. After Stresemann's death, the DVP veered sharply to the right.[14]

The party's dispute with the Social Democrats in 1930 over unemployment benefits toppled the Grand Coalition government of Hermann Müller. In the election of September 1930, the DVP was one of the biggest losers, losing 15 of its 45 parliamentary seats. The party's rightward turn accelerated soon afterward, and many of its more liberal members resigned. It began angling for a coalition of all "national" parties--including the Nazis.
A center-right/"classical liberal" position, pretty nationalistic, very hostile to all the left, which eventually drifts to the right after a specific event (death of Stresemann = election of Donald Trump), to the point of advocating to "Unite the Right". Yes, it definitely fits.

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#105

Post by d4m10n » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:07 am

d4m10n wrote: Came across this tidbit on the Twitter machine just the other day:
Brive1987 wrote: I see he is talking about illegal immigration. Which by definition is “invasive” in that there is no host consent.
This is an equivocation between the general meaning of "invasive" and the meaning of the word as an ecological term of art. The latter meaning invariably invokes a specific threat or harm to biodiversity.
Brive1987 wrote: I also note that biologically, an invasive species need not be inherently “bad” - it simply needs to disrupt and dominate the previously extant equilibrium.
Not quite correct. A threat to biodiversity goes beyond mere domination as extant species are marginalized and endangered.

At any rate, it ought not be difficult to say what such disruption and domination might look like if we choose to conceptualize human beings as invasive species.
Brive1987 wrote: Are you another Kirb-ite (cultural) National Identity denier?
Perhaps so. What is the specific proposition to be affirmed or rejected?

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#106

Post by Brive1987 » Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:44 pm

Both cases describe a status quo disrupted and threatened by the arrival of exotic elements - which proceed to dominate their environment.

It’s a simple and unremarkable analogy. Now you can’t push any analogy to the literal plus you may not agree with the premise (that illegals are invasive and, in numbers, disruptive to the point of host-danger). But that’s a different discussion.

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#107

Post by Brive1987 » Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:59 pm

Kirb I would be very careful with conflating the dynamics of 1920/30s Germany with 21 Century global popularism. The use of the highly specific (Nazism/DVP) to describe the general (anti liberal backlash) is self evidently “problematic”.

Harris is a hard valuist, he sees the West as a defined collective under attack by radical Islam and needing active defence (profiling etc). That’s why he can find common ground with the left flank of the deplorable. He is also an American with the resultant taint of libertarianism.

America possesses almost an almost fascist :mrgreen: level of very prescribed civic nationalism. It is an odd bird indeed.

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#108

Post by KiwiInOz » Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:57 pm


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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#109

Post by Brive1987 » Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:07 pm

Kirbmarc wrote:
Brive1987 wrote:
Kirbmarc wrote:
Brive1987 wrote:
Kirbmarc wrote: "Blood and soil" = nothing to do with ancestry/"race".

"Shared ethnic identity" = nothing to do with ancestry/"race".

"White genocide", sorry "the Great Replacement" = nothing to do with ancestry/"race".

"They will change our racial identity" = nothing to do with ancestry/"race".

A video of black people who are "the end of France" = nothing to do with ancestry/"race".

Yeah, the alt-righters definitely never ever focus on race. It's just my personal obsession. :bjarte:
Ummmm I never said the far right weren’t race fixated. I just noted that in any discussion of culture and national identity you don’t become (say) language obsessed, you become race obsessed.

It’s a trait you should be aware of.
So I take it that you agree with me that Lauren Southern and Generation Identity are far-right and fixated with race.
No. They are drifting close but are still within the right flank of cultural defense

https://i.imgur.com/qLf5EvE.jpg

Nb you conflate the entire right with your zone of obsession. You lack subtlety on this topic.
I certainly don't conflate Sam Harris with Lauren Southern.
Don't say I'm not open to compromise.

https://i.imgur.com/abtRtC9.jpg

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#110

Post by d4m10n » Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:07 am

Brive1987 wrote: Both cases describe a status quo disrupted and threatened by the arrival of exotic elements - which proceed to dominate their environment.
Perhaps you provided examples elsewhere of new people arriving as "exotic elements" and eventually coming to dominate the aboriginal people.

I can think of just a handful of examples: North America, Australia, New Zealand, and Israel.

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#111

Post by d4m10n » Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:15 am

d4m10n wrote: I can think of just a handful of examples: North America, Australia, New Zealand, and Israel.
Of course, these examples were all Europeans practicing colonialism back when that sort of thing was considered de rigueur for the great powers of the world.

Perhaps more modern examples exist, examples relevant to the age of stable nation states?

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#112

Post by Steersman » Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:47 am

d4m10n wrote:
Brive1987 wrote: Both cases describe a status quo disrupted and threatened by the arrival of exotic elements - which proceed to dominate their environment.
Perhaps you provided examples elsewhere of new people arriving as "exotic elements" and eventually coming to dominate the aboriginal people.

I can think of just a handful of examples: North America, Australia, New Zealand, and Israel.
And of course, all cultures are created equal ... Amirite? ;-)

Apropos of which:
Take up the Sagan_Section1A.jpg[/attachment]]White Man’s burden

Send forth the best ye breed—

Go send your sons to exile

To serve your captives' need

To wait in heavy harness

On fluttered folk and wild—

Your new-caught, sullen peoples,

Half devil and half child
....
;-)

You might also reflect on a quote of Carl Sagan from his Broca's Brain (highly recommended):

Sagan_Section1A.jpg
(168.3 KiB) Downloaded 62 times

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#113

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:10 am

d4m10n wrote:
d4m10n wrote: Came across this tidbit on the Twitter machine just the other day:
Brive1987 wrote: I see he is talking about illegal immigration. Which by definition is “invasive” in that there is no host consent.
This is an equivocation between the general meaning of "invasive" and the meaning of the word as an ecological term of art. The latter meaning invariably invokes a specific threat or harm to biodiversity.
Brive1987 wrote: I also note that biologically, an invasive species need not be inherently “bad” - it simply needs to disrupt and dominate the previously extant equilibrium.
Not quite correct. A threat to biodiversity goes beyond mere domination as extant species are marginalized and endangered.

At any rate, it ought not be difficult to say what such disruption and domination might look like if we choose to conceptualize human beings as invasive species.
Brive1987 wrote: Are you another Kirb-ite (cultural) National Identity denier?
Perhaps so. What is the specific proposition to be affirmed or rejected?
I saw the exchange with Mykeru, and thought he came off fairly poorly in it, all things considered. As an aside, and a complete derail of the thread, he's gone a bit wacky over women.


Apparently all women are the same and lack any ethics or conscious agency. It's always a little sad when a formerly funny, interesting poster becomes obsessive, dogmatic and more interested in making a point for their narrative than in the truth.

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#114

Post by MarcusAu » Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:07 am

I (almost) always appreciated Mykeru too - and have no problem with deviating this thread completely off track.

Life is bitter-sweet I suppose...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YyuMir1VFM

...hope all is well in your neck of the woods CFB.

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#115

Post by d4m10n » Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:02 pm

CaptainFluffyBunny wrote: Apparently all women are the same and lack any ethics or conscious agency. It's always a little sad when a formerly funny, interesting poster becomes obsessive, dogmatic and more interested in making a point for their narrative than in the truth.
Casting aside individuality in favor of group identity is the ultimate SJW move.

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#116

Post by Brive1987 » Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:56 pm

d4m10n wrote:
Brive1987 wrote: Both cases describe a status quo disrupted and threatened by the arrival of exotic elements - which proceed to dominate their environment.
Perhaps you provided examples elsewhere of new people arriving as "exotic elements" and eventually coming to dominate the aboriginal people.

I can think of just a handful of examples: North America, Australia, New Zealand, and Israel.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ve-in.html
Analysis of the last census also revealed that more than 600,000 white British Londoners left the capital in a decade. Between 2001 and 2011 the level reached 620,000.

It is the equivalent of a city the size of Glasgow – made up entirely of white Britons – moving out of the capital. It also means that white Britons are now in a minority in the country’s largest city.

White Britons now make up 45 per cent of the population, compared with 58 per cent in 2001.

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#117

Post by Brive1987 » Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:20 pm


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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#118

Post by Brive1987 » Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:22 pm

d4m10n wrote:
Casting aside individuality in favor of group identity is the ultimate SJW move.
Are we playing “name the logical fallacy”

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#119

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:01 pm

Brive1987 wrote:
d4m10n wrote:
Brive1987 wrote: Both cases describe a status quo disrupted and threatened by the arrival of exotic elements - which proceed to dominate their environment.
Perhaps you provided examples elsewhere of new people arriving as "exotic elements" and eventually coming to dominate the aboriginal people.

I can think of just a handful of examples: North America, Australia, New Zealand, and Israel.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ve-in.html
Analysis of the last census also revealed that more than 600,000 white British Londoners left the capital in a decade. Between 2001 and 2011 the level reached 620,000.

It is the equivalent of a city the size of Glasgow – made up entirely of white Britons – moving out of the capital. It also means that white Britons are now in a minority in the country’s largest city.

White Britons now make up 45 per cent of the population, compared with 58 per cent in 2001.
I agree that immigration levels are unsustainable and that some bad actors are being admitted. That said, the relative decline of the white population is strictly voluntary. People leaving London for the suburbs and country is voluntary. Nobody is instituting a one-white child policy. If this is a genocide, it is a voluntary one, as white people decide it is economically inconvenient to reproduce and that their lifestyle is better suited to other places than a crowded, expensive city.

So let's say that you manage to cut down immigration (which you won't manage by emulating the braid bimbos, but by a cogent economic argument devoid of the least trace of incipient racism.) What is your plan to deal with these immigrants already in place in Londonistan? They are out-reproducing the natives, and the Muslims seem to be a prolific lot. What now?

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Re: The Ethnostate Thread!

#120

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:03 pm

Brive1987 wrote:
d4m10n wrote:
Casting aside individuality in favor of group identity is the ultimate SJW move.
Are we playing “name the logical fallacy”
Are we? And more to the point, is he wrong?

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