The Trump Dump!

Double wank and shit chips
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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2641

Post by free thoughtpolice » Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:29 pm

Everyone makes mistakes. I shouldn't have rubbed it in that you admitted your mistake.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2642

Post by free thoughtpolice » Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:12 pm

it's not a trap. :drool:

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2643

Post by Kirbmarc » Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:37 pm

Brive1987 wrote:
Sunder wrote:
Brive1987 wrote:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dysjje-W0AECp5s.jpg

I genuinely have to ask: Have you completely thrown away all vestiges of skepticism and critical thinking, or do you know you're peddling horseshit but it's all to own the libs so it's fine? Lyin' for Jesus! Also polls are trustworthy again (when they say what I want them to say).

In other news, we polled Super Bowl attendees and it turns out that 98% of Americans, no, wait, 98% of all people who have ever lived, simply love football.
The Trump polling blitz was just one aspect of my “mad day in America” post. You don’t seem to have picked up the point that Trump was supposedly crashing with Independents and his soft base. The Libs breath polls, that a growing consensus say ‘Trump done good’ must mean something to someone.
Sure, it means something to someone: Republicans and GOP-friendly independents. Which likely constitute a majority of those watching the SOTU.

Nobody is denying that Trump has a motivated and vocal fan base. The problem for him is whether that's enough to win.

Only 31 per cent of independents approve of his job. That's not nothing, but it's likely not enough

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2644

Post by Kirbmarc » Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:21 pm

A Twitter thread about evidence of a deal (or deals) for private business in Russia on Trump's part in exchange for possible future political decisions:

[tweet][/tweet]

(h/t Skep Tickle)

Trump's associates Michael Cohen and Felix Sater conducted business deals with Putin and other Russian autocrats, on behalf of Trump, promising policy changes in exchange for those deals if Trump was elected.

I'm no legal expert, but this looks pretty damning.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2645

Post by Brive1987 » Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:31 pm

Yep Kirb.

It’s a disaster that 76% of viewers approved of the SOTU when only 43% of said audience identify as Republican.

Another disaster like that and even I will declare Trump doomed.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2646

Post by Kirbmarc » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:14 am

Brive1987 wrote: Yep Kirb.

It’s a disaster that 76% of viewers approved of the SOTU when only 43% of said audience identify as Republican.

Another disaster like that and even I will declare Trump doomed.
48% of independents say they definitely won't vote for Donald Trump in 2020

He's lost almost half of the independents is a definitive way.

Perhaps you might want to consider that those who watched the SOTU speech aren't a very representative sample of the voters.

If among 300 high school students 155 of them absolutely hate your guts you're probably struggling to be elected school president, but if only 30 of them watch your podcast, and 24 of them are either your fans or people who don't mind mind your ideas, you can still look popular.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2647

Post by John D » Thu Feb 07, 2019 7:17 am

I love watching Black conservatives. The kkk memes are hilarious.


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2648

Post by John D » Thu Feb 07, 2019 7:51 am

Kirbmarc wrote:
Brive1987 wrote: Yep Kirb.

It’s a disaster that 76% of viewers approved of the SOTU when only 43% of said audience identify as Republican.

Another disaster like that and even I will declare Trump doomed.
48% of independents say they definitely won't vote for Donald Trump in 2020

He's lost almost half of the independents is a definitive way.

Perhaps you might want to consider that those who watched the SOTU speech aren't a very representative sample of the voters.

If among 300 high school students 155 of them absolutely hate your guts you're probably struggling to be elected school president, but if only 30 of them watch your podcast, and 24 of them are either your fans or people who don't mind mind your ideas, you can still look popular.
48% of Independents swear that they will not have a beer after work tonight... but then they have their nightly fight with their spouse and crack open a beer by 7:30.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2649

Post by MarcusAu » Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:24 am

This sounds a little sensitive...

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2650

Post by Kirbmarc » Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:31 am

John D wrote:
Kirbmarc wrote:
Brive1987 wrote: Yep Kirb.

It’s a disaster that 76% of viewers approved of the SOTU when only 43% of said audience identify as Republican.

Another disaster like that and even I will declare Trump doomed.
48% of independents say they definitely won't vote for Donald Trump in 2020

He's lost almost half of the independents is a definitive way.

Perhaps you might want to consider that those who watched the SOTU speech aren't a very representative sample of the voters.

If among 300 high school students 155 of them absolutely hate your guts you're probably struggling to be elected school president, but if only 30 of them watch your podcast, and 24 of them are either your fans or people who don't mind mind your ideas, you can still look popular.
48% of Independents swear that they will not have a beer after work tonight... but then they have their nightly fight with their spouse and crack open a beer by 7:30.
So Trump is an addiction for people who can't handle their frustrations? Seems legit.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2651

Post by jugheadnaut » Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:00 am

Kirbmarc wrote:
Brive1987 wrote: Yep Kirb.

It’s a disaster that 76% of viewers approved of the SOTU when only 43% of said audience identify as Republican.

Another disaster like that and even I will declare Trump doomed.
48% of independents say they definitely won't vote for Donald Trump in 2020

He's lost almost half of the independents is a definitive way.

Perhaps you might want to consider that those who watched the SOTU speech aren't a very representative sample of the voters.

If among 300 high school students 155 of them absolutely hate your guts you're probably struggling to be elected school president, but if only 30 of them watch your podcast, and 24 of them are either your fans or people who don't mind mind your ideas, you can still look popular.
Trump's polling through 2016 was pretty much the same and it seemed there was no real possibility he would win. And yet he did. He's not running in a vacuum where voters are deciding exclusively based on their opinion of him, but against somebody else, who can be bringing in their own set of negatives. Trump was fortunate enough in 2016 to be running against the most unlikable presidential candidate in a generation and starting about a month before the election polls began shifting to give him a window of opportunity as significant numbers of voters decided they could not stomach a vote for Clinton. In 2020, Warren (especially), Sanders, Harris and Gillibrand will all have significant negatives among independent voters, and the primaries are likely to exacerbate these. A big question is whether the more likable candidates will be able to survive unscathed. The hard left is emboldened within the Democratic Party right now and sees 2020 as their turn to pick a candidate. Would they accept a well liked bipartisan moderate like Klobuchar, who undamaged would probably beat Trump by 10-20 points? My sense is no, they would find a way to defeat her or damage her and we'll wind up with Harris running as an identity candidate, giving Trump an opportunity.

Bottom line, it's way, way, way too early to be looking at polling and determining Trump is toast.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2652

Post by Kirbmarc » Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:16 am

jugheadnaut wrote:
Kirbmarc wrote:
Brive1987 wrote: Yep Kirb.

It’s a disaster that 76% of viewers approved of the SOTU when only 43% of said audience identify as Republican.

Another disaster like that and even I will declare Trump doomed.
48% of independents say they definitely won't vote for Donald Trump in 2020

He's lost almost half of the independents is a definitive way.

Perhaps you might want to consider that those who watched the SOTU speech aren't a very representative sample of the voters.

If among 300 high school students 155 of them absolutely hate your guts you're probably struggling to be elected school president, but if only 30 of them watch your podcast, and 24 of them are either your fans or people who don't mind mind your ideas, you can still look popular.
Trump's polling through 2016 was pretty much the same and it seemed there was no real possibility he would win. And yet he did. He's not running in a vacuum where voters are deciding exclusively based on their opinion of him, but against somebody else, who can be bringing in their own set of negatives. Trump was fortunate enough in 2016 to be running against the most unlikable presidential candidate in a generation and starting about a month before the election polls began shifting to give him a window of opportunity as significant numbers of voters decided they could not stomach a vote for Clinton. In 2020, Warren (especially), Sanders, Harris and Gillibrand will all have significant negatives among independent voters, and the primaries are likely to exacerbate these. A big question is whether the more likable candidates will be able to survive unscathed. The hard left is emboldened within the Democratic Party right now and sees 2020 as their turn to pick a candidate. Would they accept a well liked bipartisan moderate like Klobuchar, who undamaged would probably beat Trump by 10-20 points? My sense is no, they would find a way to defeat her or damage her and we'll wind up with Harris running as an identity candidate, giving Trump an opportunity.

Bottom line, it's way, way, way too early to be looking at polling and determining Trump is toast.
It is certainly possible that the Dems will be shooting thrmselves in the foot.

I don't think Trump has an impossible job, but he definitely faces an uphill battle, and the Wall shenanigans haven't helped him.

Also he won by very small margins in the Rust Belt states, which the Dems took for granted (Hillary didn't even visit Wisconsin)

I don't see the Dems making the same mistake twice.

n 2016 Trump was an incognita, and it's possible that some voted him to shake things up. In 2020 people will know his track record, and he won't be the Candidate of Change anymore.

But yes, the Dems can certainly lose the election if they, for example, go full SocJus.

Gillibrand is especially daft about this and Trump could do well if she were the nominee (which I think is unlikely). Harris seems smart enough to triangulate to a certain degree.

I guess we'll see. Everything is possible, there might be a picture of Harris hanging out with Loius Farrakhan while he blathered about Jewish conspiracies for all I know.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2653

Post by jugheadnaut » Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:00 am

Kirbmarc wrote:

It is certainly possible that the Dems will be shooting thrmselves in the foot.

I don't think Trump has an impossible job, but he definitely faces an uphill battle, and the Wall shenanigans haven't helped him.

Also he won by very small margins in the Rust Belt states, which the Dems took for granted (Hillary didn't even visit Wisconsin)

I don't see the Dems making the same mistake twice.

n 2016 Trump was an incognita, and it's possible that some voted him to shake things up. In 2020 people will know his track record, and he won't be the Candidate of Change anymore.

But yes, the Dems can certainly lose the election if they, for example, go full SocJus.

Gillibrand is especially daft about this and Trump could do well if she were the nominee (which I think is unlikely). Harris seems smart enough to triangulate to a certain degree.

I guess we'll see. Everything is possible, there might be a picture of Harris hanging out with Loius Farrakhan while he blathered about Jewish conspiracies for all I know.
I do agree Trump has to be seen as the underdog at this point. He should never have been President, and it took an unusual confluence of events to make it happen, at least some of which will have to recur in 2020. The Democratic primary process seems almost certain to be a shit show, and the DNC's ability to manage it will be minimal. If the far left runs wild with identity politics festooned protests everywhere, Trump could win surprisingly easily. Historically, it's very hard to defeat an incumbent president when there is general satisfaction with the economy, so the state of the economy over the next 18 months is another big factor.

It's true Trump will have lost the "what do you have to lose" factor as he gains his own record. He'll also have largely assuaged the "he's too crazy to be President" fears, at least to those without TDS. There were semi-legitimate fears in 2016 he would routinely engage in nuclear brinkmanship, have journalists he didn't like investigated and arrested, ignore court rulings setting up constitutional crises, and mismanage the economy. Instead, his one act of nuclear brinkmanship with NK turned into an agreement that seems more effective and durable than what had occurred in the past, and while he does regrettably engage in name calling with journalists and even judges, he hasn't come close to doing actual harm to freedom of the press or rule of law. The economy has been strong. In terms of presidential action, with his SC picks, tax reform legislation and deregulatory initiatives, he's governed as an effective mainstream conservative. Of course, there have been issues as well, like the chaos with his top advisors and cabinet picks, but on the whole, I think the tradeoff helps him.

He's almost certain to lose at least one of the Rust Belt states, and could easily lose all of them. Even if he does, winning Virginia, which could easily be back in play, would give him the victory.

There's lots to play out and he has more than one path to victory, so any triumphalism about his certain defeat is misplaced. Personally, I'm hoping he'll find a way to declare victory and announce he's not running for another term and turn this into a normal ideology driven election cycle, but I'm not holding my breath.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2654

Post by Keating » Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:23 pm

Ladies and gentlemen, we finally got him:


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2655

Post by Sunder » Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:24 pm

Trump's failure to use his position to silence his enemies certainly hasn't been for lack of trying. Just ask Cohen.

I think giving Trump credit for being restrained by a federal govt. not quite ready to indulge his every illegal whim is not charity, it's absurdity.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2656

Post by jugheadnaut » Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:04 pm

Sunder wrote: Trump's failure to use his position to silence his enemies certainly hasn't been for lack of trying. Just ask Cohen.

I think giving Trump credit for being restrained by a federal govt. not quite ready to indulge his every illegal whim is not charity, it's absurdity.
My point wasn't that Trump deserves credit for not being a dictator. He certainly doesn't. It's that all the hyperbole about "following Hitler's playbook" and "Democracy dies in darkness" has been shown to be complete bullshit.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2657

Post by free thoughtpolice » Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:35 pm

Kirbmarc wrote:
I guess we'll see. Everything is possible, there might be a picture of Harris hanging out with Loius Farrakhan while he blathered about Jewish conspiracies for all I know.
I was a bit disappointed when she made her declaration speech and gave women's rights as a top platform. I want to see a politician focusing on governing for all and not have the first thing out of their mouths when they describe their agenda to focus on one group or another. Also, don't make the mistake of giving the message that you should vote for a woman because she is a woman and they deserve their turn at power like Clinton did.
Vote for me, not because of race and gender but because I have the best ideas, will rule fairly,and am capable of getting things done.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2658

Post by Brive1987 » Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:53 pm

CFB: “We are carefully watching the suffragette/ Virginia / SOTU situation, but we are not currently prepared to comment”

;)

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2659

Post by Old_ones » Thu Feb 07, 2019 7:09 pm

jugheadnaut wrote:
Sunder wrote: Trump's failure to use his position to silence his enemies certainly hasn't been for lack of trying. Just ask Cohen.

I think giving Trump credit for being restrained by a federal govt. not quite ready to indulge his every illegal whim is not charity, it's absurdity.
My point wasn't that Trump deserves credit for not being a dictator. He certainly doesn't. It's that all the hyperbole about "following Hitler's playbook" and "Democracy dies in darkness" has been shown to be complete bullshit.
I'll never understand the stupid Hitler comparisons (Hitler was a great public speaker and a strong leader with a clear vision for his country and a galvanized public behind him - much more dangerous and empowered than Trump) but Trump is not normal or healthy either. He is the most conflicted president we've ever had - he and his progeny have shady deals with foreign governments that are ongoing since before he was elected. He has also put pressure on his justice department to stop investigating him and go after his political enemies the same way Nixon did. Also, if recent reports are to be believed, he's working about 2 hours per day and spending the rest of his day watching TV and rage tweeting, or engaging in shady meetings that he doesn't want on the record. He has a huge number of openings in his government simply by virtue of the fact that he doesn't work hard enough to get them filled. So no, Trump is not like Hitler, and no, democracy hasn't "died in darkness" yet (seriously Washington Post?) but Trump is a moronic degenerate who is doing serious damage to the government and our alliances.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2660

Post by John D » Thu Feb 07, 2019 7:32 pm

Trump 2020.... I need a sign for my yard!

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2661

Post by Old_ones » Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:13 pm

MarcusAu wrote: This sounds a little sensitive...
LMAO! OK President Hensley.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2662

Post by Lsuoma » Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:41 pm

#POTUSPTSD

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2663

Post by Brive1987 » Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:24 pm

He has a point.



The nation elected a ruthless politically incorrect bastard-developer who replaced accepted status quo of political hypocrisy and structural (Dan Carlin identified) graft with a new set of ‘pragmatics’.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2664

Post by Kirbmarc » Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:49 pm

Old_ones wrote:
jugheadnaut wrote:
Sunder wrote: Trump's failure to use his position to silence his enemies certainly hasn't been for lack of trying. Just ask Cohen.

I think giving Trump credit for being restrained by a federal govt. not quite ready to indulge his every illegal whim is not charity, it's absurdity.
My point wasn't that Trump deserves credit for not being a dictator. He certainly doesn't. It's that all the hyperbole about "following Hitler's playbook" and "Democracy dies in darkness" has been shown to be complete bullshit.
I'll never understand the stupid Hitler comparisons (Hitler was a great public speaker and a strong leader with a clear vision for his country and a galvanized public behind him - much more dangerous and empowered than Trump) but Trump is not normal or healthy either. He is the most conflicted president we've ever had - he and his progeny have shady deals with foreign governments that are ongoing since before he was elected. He has also put pressure on his justice department to stop investigating him and go after his political enemies the same way Nixon did. Also, if recent reports are to be believed, he's working about 2 hours per day and spending the rest of his day watching TV and rage tweeting, or engaging in shady meetings that he doesn't want on the record. He has a huge number of openings in his government simply by virtue of the fact that he doesn't work hard enough to get them filled. So no, Trump is not like Hitler, and no, democracy hasn't "died in darkness" yet (seriously Washington Post?) but Trump is a moronic degenerate who is doing serious damage to the government and our alliances.
Trump is not Hitler, he's America's answer to Silvio Berlusconi. They're both former entrepreneurs who had ties to the show business and entered politics as outsiders. They both won at least in part thanks to being politically incorrect and using easy slogans about making their countries great (MAGA vs "Forza Italia", literally "Go Italy", which was a football cheer).

They both pandered to the far right through xenophobic rhetoric about invasions of dangerous foreigners (Trump and the Wall/muslim ban, Berlusconi and his idea of closing Italian ports). They both explicitly gave a pass to at least some parts of the far right, but only the parts they described as "moderate" (Trump and "both sides", Berlusconi allying himself with a "post-fascist" party).

They also both had an adversarial relationship with the press, at least at the level of media outbursts about how "the left" is controlling the media and making them look bad, they both tried to use the justice system against their enemies, they violated established procedures, are massively corrupt and nepotistic, and frequently play the victim.

They also both engaged in shady deals with foreign powers to enrich themselves and their cronies.

Hell, they even both have a history of cheating on their trophy wives and bragging about how they get women because they're famous, and about how how smart they are for not paying taxes.

Don't believe me? Here's a Bloomberg article about how similar they are.

They're not dictators, they're kleptocrats.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2665

Post by Kirbmarc » Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:54 pm

Brive1987 wrote: He has a point.



The nation elected a ruthless politically incorrect bastard-developer who replaced accepted status quo of political hypocrisy and structural (Dan Carlin identified) graft with a new set of ‘pragmatics’.
Thread (h/t Skep Tickel):
There's actually plenty of evidence of shady business deals going on between Trump and Russian oligarchs, up to Putin, and also evidence that Trump's associates, especially Michael Cohen and Felix Sater, promised some "pay for play" deal about favorable business associations in exchange for a change in foreign policy.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2666

Post by Kirbmarc » Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:59 pm

The American system was already massively exposed to corruption thanks to lobbying and more or less legal "pay for play" deals with various foreign powers (like the Saudis) but Trump took it to a new level, and unlike other players, he didn't even remotely care about whether what he was doing was legal or not.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2667

Post by Kirbmarc » Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:07 am

In the US, "soft" corruption is more or less legal
In politics, pay to play refers to a system, akin to payola in the music industry, by which one pays (or must pay) money to become a player.

Typically, the payer (an individual, business, or organization) makes campaign contributions to public officials, party officials, or parties themselves, and receives political or pecuniary benefit such as no-bid government contracts, influence over legislation,[6][7] political appointments or nominations,[8][9] special access[10] or other favors. The contributions, less frequently, may be to nonprofit or institutional entities,[11] or may take the form of some benefit to a third party, such as a family member of a governmental official.[12]
According to the available evidence, Trump went above and beyond that, since he had his associates (especially Felix Sater) explicitly promise a change in foreign policy in exchange for business deals. That's very likely illegal.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2668

Post by Kirbmarc » Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:58 am

free thoughtpolice wrote: Kirbmarc wrote:
I guess we'll see. Everything is possible, there might be a picture of Harris hanging out with Loius Farrakhan while he blathered about Jewish conspiracies for all I know.
I was a bit disappointed when she made her declaration speech and gave women's rights as a top platform. I want to see a politician focusing on governing for all and not have the first thing out of their mouths when they describe their agenda to focus on one group or another. Also, don't make the mistake of giving the message that you should vote for a woman because she is a woman and they deserve their turn at power like Clinton did.
Vote for me, not because of race and gender but because I have the best ideas, will rule fairly,and am capable of getting things done.
Meh. In the current climate, she kind of has to say that line. It's like Republican talking about "family values". I'm not a fan of Harris, especially since her approach to the justice system is likely to make some issues even worse, but she doesn't strike me as a true SocJus believer like Gillibrand. I expect that she'll use her identity as a "strong POC woman" throughout the campaign.

There are some Democratic candidates I'd much prefer to Harris, but they're either old as fuck and "white males" (Sanders) dealing with the aftermath of stupid scandals that will enrage the woke (Warren) or have overplayed their hand by being WAY too charitable to some autocratic foreign powers (Gabbard).

Other candidates that don't really do much for me are also "white males" (Biden, O'Rourke) or way too centrist to appeal to the growing progressives (Klobuchar).

Harris so far is the least "controversial" candidate, she's an establishment Democrat, able to appeal to centrist and progressives alike, a darling of the donors, and the woke will likely love her. That's why she has more chances than others. I think that we will hear A LOT of identitarian nonsense from her during the primaries, to attack the "white males" and "white women" who will be her rivals, then a more subdued version if she wins.

But again, she might have skeletons in her closet, or mess it up, or her rivals might put together some effective defense from the woke.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2669

Post by Brive1987 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:12 am

The point is there’s a significant population who don’t give a flying fig about Trumps personal predilections. He just needs to try and counteract the perceived drift towards the liberal left.

One Big Mac at a time.

Consider him an unpleasant political colonic.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2670

Post by Brive1987 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:16 am

There are some Democratic candidates I'd much prefer to Harris, but they're either old as fuck and "white males" (Sanders) dealing with the aftermath of stupid scandals that will enrage the woke (Warren)
Jesus Christ.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2671

Post by Kirbmarc » Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:28 am

Brive1987 wrote:
There are some Democratic candidates I'd much prefer to Harris, but they're either old as fuck and "white males" (Sanders) dealing with the aftermath of stupid scandals that will enrage the woke (Warren)
Jesus Christ.
I'm expressing how the SocJus perceives them, not saying how I see them.

Sanders IS old. He would be much better than the woke, even in terms of your concern about border security (he's explicitly against open borders) but in the current climate of outrage over anything he's unlikely to be able to last long before the Woke Smear Machine finds something about him. And Warren has lied bout a dumb thing that wouldn't matter much in a saner political climate, but will be endlessly milked for what it's worth in the Age of Identity.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2672

Post by Kirbmarc » Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:37 am

Brive1987 wrote: The point is there’s a significant population who don’t give a flying fig about Trumps personal predilections. He just needs to try and counteract the perceived drift towards the liberal left.

One Big Mac at a time.

Consider him an unpleasant political colonic.
Of course if the SocJus crowd overplay their hand they might give him the election. But not everything is about the SocJus. Trump's grift and his botched plan to build the Wall by triggering a government shutdown have soured many about him. So unless the Democratic candidate goes completely nuts with social justice, his strategy of "I'm shit, but I'm better than those crazies" isn't likely to pay off. So far the worst excess of the SocJus have been limited to online shenanigans and university campuses, and lots of people don't give a fuck about those.

Traditional Republican voters will stay Republican, traditional Democratic voters will stay Democratic. The battle is a) to get out the vote on your side and b) to convince the wishy-washies, the uncertain, the independents. And in terms of people who care less about politics, queues of people without a job for a shutdown about a wall that will never be built very likely matter more than people pussy hats screeching "nazi" and students calling white people pieces of shit.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2673

Post by Brive1987 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:01 am

Cow farts ....



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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2675

Post by John D » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:29 am

That bald Asian leftist makes a good summary of Trumps SOTU.


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2676

Post by free thoughtpolice » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:32 am

This idiot also thinks demons are real. Actually even nuttier and stupider than that dingbat AOC.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2677

Post by John D » Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:27 pm

Shit... my daughter's FTM trans boyfriend Facebook posted about a 7 year old trans girl that needed help selling Girl Scout Cookies. I almost wrote: "7 year old kids can't be trans"... but .... my daughter is already hating on my quite a bit. I am just really sad and disappointed about where she is right now in her thinking.

She actually started talking to me about different types of truth the other day. And I am like "Look... you can have different opinions... and different feelings... and different experiences.... but... you can't have your own truth. That is Oprah level bullshit."

She is not happy with me right now.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2678

Post by Brive1987 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:37 pm

free thoughtpolice wrote: This idiot also thinks demons are real. Actually even nuttier and stupider than that dingbat AOC.
https..://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6ENoW_aarI
Very old school Styx. I get the feeling you are a play the person, not the ideas kinda guy.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2679

Post by John D » Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:54 pm

Brive1987 wrote:
free thoughtpolice wrote: This idiot also thinks demons are real. Actually even nuttier and stupider than that dingbat AOC.
https..://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6ENoW_aarI
Very old school Styx. I get the feeling you are a play the person, not the ideas kinda guy.
I enjoy watching Styx. Sometimes he is completely off base... but often he has a unique and well considered perspective. I think I am smart enough to tell the difference. I certainly don't dismiss an idea just because it comes from someone who has been wrong in the past.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2680

Post by free thoughtpolice » Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:57 pm

Brive1987 wrote:
free thoughtpolice wrote: This idiot also thinks demons are real. Actually even nuttier and stupider than that dingbat AOC.
https..://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6ENoW_aarI
Very old school Styx. I get the feeling you are a play the person, not the ideas kinda guy.
Pointing out that your ideological pal has had some awfully stupid ideas like holocaust denial, belief in demons... That is playing the ideas.
It just seems ironic that he can then come in and quote some goofy ideas from an extreme lefty and imply that all liberals think like her. Hell considering the ridiculous things he has said he really should get all chuffed and arrogant about hoe he has owned some other dingbat.
Or maybe you think we should "sift the flour" and ignore the stupid stuff AOC says and just concentrate on the stuff she gets right. If you were intellectually consistent you would do that with left wing kooks as well as right wing kooks.
Personally , I think Styx the satanist needs an exorcism needs an exorcism and I know just the trad/con cultural christian to do it. :P

SWIDT?

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2681

Post by John D » Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:58 pm

I also suspect that there is something to the Zyklon B skepticism. I am not going to claim that there weren't 6 million Jews killed in the Holocaust.... but I wouldn't be surprised if most of the killing was done by simply starving and working them to death. The Allied troops certainly found enough mass graveyards to prove mass killing... but... did they really gas that many people? Gas is expensive. I could be skeptical of that.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2682

Post by Brive1987 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:18 pm

Einsatzgruppen and the Reinhard Camps form a rich tapestry together with Birkenau.

For the latter this is an interesting analysis.

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... oles.shtml

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2683

Post by John D » Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:26 pm

Brive1987 wrote: Einsatzgruppen and the Reinhard Camps form a rich tapestry together with Birkenau.

For the latter this is an interesting analysis.

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... oles.shtml
Interesting. Is there some kind of analysis... or Nazi records, showing the number of deaths caused specifically in the chambers?

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2684

Post by Brive1987 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:35 pm

free thoughtpolice wrote: This idiot also thinks demons are real. Actually even nuttier and stupider than that dingbat AOC.
https..://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6ENoW_aarI
Better you watch the full video.

https://www.bitchute.com/video/11S478zZdKfn/

“I am not a holocust denier”. “I’m sure millions were executed”. “Butchery on an untold scale occurred”

The dude shows typical historical confusion dealing with a complex topic. He has since walked back this confusion and made it clear he is not a denier while questioning the motives of those (like yourself) who appear to seek leverage over honesty.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2685

Post by Brive1987 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:45 pm

John D wrote:
Brive1987 wrote: Einsatzgruppen and the Reinhard Camps form a rich tapestry together with Birkenau.

For the latter this is an interesting analysis.

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... oles.shtml
Interesting. Is there some kind of analysis... or Nazi records, showing the number of deaths caused specifically in the chambers?
Nothing so simple. There are railway records for one way train trips into the camps, coupled with evidence of who came out of the camps alive .... coupled to figures for ghetto population pre deportation to the never never. Coupled to a range of eyewitness observations and physical evidence (including execavations of mass graves in Russia and physical remains in the KZs). There are also reports from the 4 Einsatzgruppen locking in death rolls of hundreds of thousands. And surveys of mass grave locations in Ukraine based on village oral history and physical verification.

The Hungarian Jews are a good case study in converging evidence that strongly suggest 430,000 met their end in Auschwitz during 1944.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2686

Post by free thoughtpolice » Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:53 pm

The dude shows typical historical confusion dealing with a complex topic. He has since walked back this confusion and made it clear he is not a denier while questioning the motives of those (like yourself) who appear to seek leverage over honesty.
There was no sound on that video and I can't lipread. How about we talk about how honest your sensei is by deleting this video from his feed and you talk about me seeking leverage over honesty. I might have a little respect for him if he left the original video up and and made a direct statement that he had been wrong and was parroting misinformation as well coming to a wrong conclusion. btw, When did he make the admission that he was wrong about this? Sorry, I don't have the patience to sift through the crackpot flour.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2687

Post by jugheadnaut » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:06 pm

John D wrote:
Brive1987 wrote: Einsatzgruppen and the Reinhard Camps form a rich tapestry together with Birkenau.

For the latter this is an interesting analysis.

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... oles.shtml
Interesting. Is there some kind of analysis... or Nazi records, showing the number of deaths caused specifically in the chambers?
John D wrote:
Brive1987 wrote: Einsatzgruppen and the Reinhard Camps form a rich tapestry together with Birkenau.

For the latter this is an interesting analysis.

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... oles.shtml
Interesting. Is there some kind of analysis... or Nazi records, showing the number of deaths caused specifically in the chambers?
Here's a chart from Wikipedia showing estimates of death by camp. It would be difficult to derive an estimate of numbers killed in gas chambers since many deaths in extermination camps would have been through other means, like disease, starvation, shooting, or hanging. I think historian consensus on numbers killed in gas chambers is around 2 million, and the number killed by Zyklon B specifically would be maybe half that because the deaths at Treblinka, the second most deadly camp, were by carbon monoxide, not Zyklon B.

Gas was the predominant method used in the industrialization phase of mass murder. But the argument that those not killed by gas or bullets were unfortunate casualties of war as opposed to murder victims is specious. If someone is forced into daily hard labor under penalty of shooting, given a few hundred calories of food per day, and housed in atrocious conditions at densities more than 10x higher than what would be considered humane, and they die of disease, starvation, or exhaustion, how is that any less a premeditated murder than if they went to the gas chambers?

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2688

Post by Brive1987 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Worked for me.

......

Interesting train analysis for Hungary.

http://www.zchor.org/hungaria.htm

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2689

Post by Lsuoma » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:07 pm

John D wrote: I also suspect that there is something to the Zyklon B skepticism. I am not going to claim that there weren't 6 million Jews killed in the Holocaust.... but I wouldn't be surprised if most of the killing was done by simply starving and working them to death. The Allied troops certainly found enough mass graveyards to prove mass killing... but... did they really gas that many people? Gas is expensive. I could be skeptical of that.
HCN isn't expensive, even in tonne quantities - IG Farben were producing Zyklon B by the tonne anyway, since it was an important pesticide. The Krauts simply decided to use it in a different sort of "vermin." The thing about gassing is that it happened in batches, meaning efficiencies of scale for corpse disposal - starvation/work, etc, would have ben too disorderly for the squarehead mentality.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2690

Post by Brive1987 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:27 pm

free thoughtpolice wrote:
The dude shows typical historical confusion dealing with a complex topic. He has since walked back this confusion and made it clear he is not a denier while questioning the motives of those (like yourself) who appear to seek leverage over honesty.
There was no sound on that video and I can't lipread. How about we talk about how honest your sensei is by deleting this video from his feed and you talk about me seeking leverage over honesty. I might have a little respect for him if he left the original video up and and made a direct statement that he had been wrong and was parroting misinformation as well coming to a wrong conclusion. btw, When did he make the admission that he was wrong about this? Sorry, I don't have the patience to sift through the crackpot flour.
Sort your sound out so you can comment accurately rather than parrot rational wiki.

Then I’ll do more than I already have (and below) to respond to your misinformation.




I can understand Styx wanting to back away from the topic.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2691

Post by Brive1987 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:32 pm

Lsuoma wrote:
John D wrote: I also suspect that there is something to the Zyklon B skepticism. I am not going to claim that there weren't 6 million Jews killed in the Holocaust.... but I wouldn't be surprised if most of the killing was done by simply starving and working them to death. The Allied troops certainly found enough mass graveyards to prove mass killing... but... did they really gas that many people? Gas is expensive. I could be skeptical of that.
HCN isn't expensive, even in tonne quantities - IG Farben were producing Zyklon B by the tonne anyway, since it was an important pesticide. The Krauts simply decided to use it in a different sort of "vermin." The thing about gassing is that it happened in batches, meaning efficiencies of scale for corpse disposal - starvation/work, etc, would have ben too disorderly for the squarehead mentality.
And of course the Reinhard camps (Treblinka etc) used piped carbon monoxide.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2692

Post by Brive1987 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:35 pm

Oops
:nin:

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2693

Post by Brive1987 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:49 pm

Real denial is mostly born out of rabid frustration people have with Israel and/or the perceived Jewish global conspiracy. It’s pointless to address it as legitimate historical revisionism. Unfortunately the individual arguments can be pseudo sophisticated (like the moon landing ones) and this traps casual observers into “well that’s odd” moments.

Styx got strung up by noting the (undeniable) propaganda use made of the holocaust by Israel and the “no stars in the sky” arguments to briefly express a lack of certainty of the specifics. While accepting the broader process as fact.

He has since reiterated the latter position and dropped the former. But he has never been motivated by alt-right anti Semitic bigotry. The basis of the denial model isn’t there.

You can think the man wacky. You can find truths and entertainment in some of his views (like the Green Deal etc). But don’t embarrass yourself with counter troll-bigotry.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2694

Post by Brive1987 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:54 pm



Orange man bad.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2695

Post by Brive1987 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:10 pm

PZ has (predictably) come out with a deck of ‘get out of jail free’ cards for the Virginia (D)s
So now one question is whether they deserve any kind of censure now, 30 or 40 years after the fact. Sure, this was openly racist crap, but hey, 1) it was an earlier time, that was the zeitgeist, you can’t blame the kids for going with the flow, and 2) it was so long ago that they’ve outgrown those attitudes and are now committed to egalitarianism, so don’t hold the person’s past against them, ask what they’re doing now.
:lol: :lol:

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2696

Post by free thoughtpolice » Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:15 pm

Brive wrote:
Sort your sound out so you can comment accurately rather than parrot rational wiki.
How about you tell the truth. I didn't reference rationalwiki nor do I ever because like the shirtless Jesus I know they are frequently inaccurate and I can't be bothered to have to fact check them. If I did fact check them by confirming it from one or more sources I would refer to the original or more reliable source. I played back the actual words that SJ used on video (not his video because after he was caught peddling bullshit he decided to cover his ass and deleted the video in question).
If you want to defend what he said go ahead. He's just a run of the mill conspiracy kook that even you admit was wrong about what he said there but you want to defend him as not as bad as the really bad nazi conspiracy kooks go ahead. I didn't say he was an anti semitic bigot btw. He was just repeating the they weren't gas chambers they were showers crap and other things the holocaust was a conspiracy types parrot.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2697

Post by John D » Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:18 pm

jugheadnaut wrote:
John D wrote:
Brive1987 wrote: Einsatzgruppen and the Reinhard Camps form a rich tapestry together with Birkenau.

For the latter this is an interesting analysis.

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... oles.shtml
Interesting. Is there some kind of analysis... or Nazi records, showing the number of deaths caused specifically in the chambers?
John D wrote:
Brive1987 wrote: Einsatzgruppen and the Reinhard Camps form a rich tapestry together with Birkenau.

For the latter this is an interesting analysis.

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... oles.shtml
Interesting. Is there some kind of analysis... or Nazi records, showing the number of deaths caused specifically in the chambers?
Here's a chart from Wikipedia showing estimates of death by camp. It would be difficult to derive an estimate of numbers killed in gas chambers since many deaths in extermination camps would have been through other means, like disease, starvation, shooting, or hanging. I think historian consensus on numbers killed in gas chambers is around 2 million, and the number killed by Zyklon B specifically would be maybe half that because the deaths at Treblinka, the second most deadly camp, were by carbon monoxide, not Zyklon B.

Gas was the predominant method used in the industrialization phase of mass murder. But the argument that those not killed by gas or bullets were unfortunate casualties of war as opposed to murder victims is specious. If someone is forced into daily hard labor under penalty of shooting, given a few hundred calories of food per day, and housed in atrocious conditions at densities more than 10x higher than what would be considered humane, and they die of disease, starvation, or exhaustion, how is that any less a premeditated murder than if they went to the gas chambers?
Thanks for the links etc. I am not saying one way of killing people is better or worse than any other. I have read the abridged version of the Gulag Archipelago... so... yeah. Don't get me wrong. I really am just curious about the terrible details... and I wonder why so many people poke at the details in order to try to deny the killing.

I should probably find a good book on this topic.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2698

Post by Brive1987 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:39 pm

free thoughtpolice wrote: Brive wrote:
Sort your sound out so you can comment accurately rather than parrot rational wiki.
How about you tell the truth. I didn't reference rationalwiki nor do I ever because like the shirtless Jesus I know they are frequently inaccurate and I can't be bothered to have to fact check them. If I did fact check them by confirming it from one or more sources I would refer to the original or more reliable source. I played back the actual words that SJ used on video (not his video because after he was caught peddling bullshit he decided to cover his ass and deleted the video in question).
If you want to defend what he said go ahead. He's just a run of the mill conspiracy kook that even you admit was wrong about what he said there but you want to defend him as not as bad as the really bad nazi conspiracy kooks go ahead. I didn't say he was an anti semitic bigot btw. He was just repeating the they weren't gas chambers they were showers crap and other things the holocaust was a conspiracy types parrot.
I got a mirror of the original video, watched it, extracted relevant pronouncements, provided the link and asked you to properly inform yourself to the same level. Not rely on slice and dice zingers.

To no avail.

I can’t really do more than that.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2699

Post by Brive1987 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:42 pm

John D wrote:
jugheadnaut wrote:
John D wrote:
Brive1987 wrote: Einsatzgruppen and the Reinhard Camps form a rich tapestry together with Birkenau.

For the latter this is an interesting analysis.

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... oles.shtml
Interesting. Is there some kind of analysis... or Nazi records, showing the number of deaths caused specifically in the chambers?
John D wrote:
Brive1987 wrote: Einsatzgruppen and the Reinhard Camps form a rich tapestry together with Birkenau.

For the latter this is an interesting analysis.

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... oles.shtml
Interesting. Is there some kind of analysis... or Nazi records, showing the number of deaths caused specifically in the chambers?
Here's a chart from Wikipedia showing estimates of death by camp. It would be difficult to derive an estimate of numbers killed in gas chambers since many deaths in extermination camps would have been through other means, like disease, starvation, shooting, or hanging. I think historian consensus on numbers killed in gas chambers is around 2 million, and the number killed by Zyklon B specifically would be maybe half that because the deaths at Treblinka, the second most deadly camp, were by carbon monoxide, not Zyklon B.

Gas was the predominant method used in the industrialization phase of mass murder. But the argument that those not killed by gas or bullets were unfortunate casualties of war as opposed to murder victims is specious. If someone is forced into daily hard labor under penalty of shooting, given a few hundred calories of food per day, and housed in atrocious conditions at densities more than 10x higher than what would be considered humane, and they die of disease, starvation, or exhaustion, how is that any less a premeditated murder than if they went to the gas chambers?
Thanks for the links etc. I am not saying one way of killing people is better or worse than any other. I have read the abridged version of the Gulag Archipelago... so... yeah. Don't get me wrong. I really am just curious about the terrible details... and I wonder why so many people poke at the details in order to try to deny the killing.

I should probably find a good book on this topic.
If you want detail you can’t go past the arguments re burial pit capacity (and other analysis on crematorium burning capacity and fat fed vs coal fed oven accelerants).

Eg:
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... _4489.html

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2700

Post by free thoughtpolice » Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:44 pm

I can’t really do more than that.
I clicked on the link and there was no sound. I already told you that. If he was OK when taken in context why did he memoryhole the original video?

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