The Trump Dump!

Double wank and shit chips
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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2341

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:04 am

John D wrote:
CaptainFluffyBunny wrote:
John D wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:33 pm
I watched Rudy on "Meet the Press" today... as well as comments about all the hub-bub regarding the Buzz Feed BS. I was pretty much right. There was really no news about Russia and collusion this week. Just a bunch of click-bait crap. You guys suck at this.
I dunno if you're trolling or serious. I posted one bit on the Buzzfeed story, immediately followed by Joe Walsh's caveat. But you really think Trump's innocent? Or are you just amused by his...presidential demeanor?
You do know that Mueller said the Buzz Feed article is fake news.... right?

From the NYT (and they don't get to this fact until paragraph nine! haha):
The BuzzFeed article was the talk of TV pundits and news websites for 24 hours — until Peter Carr, Mr. Mueller’s spokesman, weighed in. Mr. Carr, whose stoicism is so well-known in Washington that he has the nickname “Mr. No-Comment,” wrote: “BuzzFeed’s description of specific statements to the special counsel’s office, and characterization of documents and testimony obtained by this office, regarding Michael Cohen’s congressional testimony are not accurate.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/19/busi ... eller.html
Yes, in fact I questioned initially, long before Mueller announced, hence the caveat I posted. Do follow along.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2342

Post by John D » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:37 pm


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2343

Post by Lsuoma » Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:36 pm

I see that Trumpy's ban on transfolk in the military is still holding. That's a shame, because ol' whatshisface in that game store could probably have taken out a battalion on his own.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2344

Post by free thoughtpolice » Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:56 am

Trump's new wall tested by a caravan of illegal aliens:

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2345

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:41 am


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2346

Post by Lsuoma » Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:54 am

Yeah, rewarding his whiny tantrums was mentioned as a lousy tactic in an NPR story this morning.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2347

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:54 am


No es bueno.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2348

Post by Lsuoma » Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:57 am

Military intervention in South America again? What could possibly go wrong??

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2349

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:57 am


:popcorn:

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2350

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:00 pm

Lsuoma wrote: Military intervention in South America again? What could possibly go wrong??
A little war action will take people's minds off certain pesky domestic facts. Maybe Trump will finally get his military parade.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2351

Post by Brive1987 » Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:44 pm

Did I get odds on Hooters?

It would be so very sad for our Country if the State of the Union were not delivered on time, on schedule, and very importantly, on location!"

No 50b, no SOTU. Amazing to think that the Dems once lived in fear of Trump not abiding by the ref and accepting the election result,

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2352

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:42 am


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2353

Post by Brive1987 » Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:19 pm

PZ ‘s response to the CNN ideo-fake news.

https://i1.wp.com/freethoughtblogs.com/ ... .jpg?ssl=1


I’d wager his brand of ‘progressives’ are more race obsessed than the typical Klansman.

Which is odd given the hard-liberal line is that race is an evil power-construct and that we are all frustrated humanists weighed down by cultural baggage.

I guess that anti white racism is a form of breaking down of structural opposition. As is the war on cultural structure. The latter is the resulting rainbow nation vision.

Kind of like the Scientologist line that we have to undergo detox to be made clear and release our inner Thetan.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2354

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:43 pm


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2355

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:49 pm

Oh, racism is still a thing for white people as well.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2356

Post by Brive1987 » Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:54 pm

Well it was for him 14 years ago. Gillian’s Island was a cesspit too.

The typical PZ-progressive thinks about race one every four seconds.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2357

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:29 pm


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2358

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:47 pm

I always thought the swamp was supposed to be drained, not simply supplied with high-grade nepotism.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2359

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:47 pm



Undoubtedly...coincidence. Surely.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2360

Post by Kirbmarc » Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:03 am

Brive1987 wrote: Well it was for him 14 years ago. Gillian’s Island was a cesspit too.

The typical PZ-progressive thinks about race one every four seconds.
I agree that the obsession with race (or "identity" in general) is dumb and counterproductive.

Trump is also playing the identitarian game.

Mewnwhile real issues (healthcare, welfare, global warming, corporate cronyism, etc) are going unaddressed.

In order to virtue-signal to his base, Trump has started moronic trade wars, left government employees (including Coast Guard workers) without a paycheck, screwed up the reconstruction in Puerto Rico, messed up EPA regulations, and botched a healthcare reform. Not to mention that he practiced graft, corruption and cronyism at all levels of his administration.

And all that people talk about are smirking kids and Evil Hats.

The "culture wars" are a sucker's game, a lure for identitarian idiots who are easy to manipulate.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2361

Post by Brive1987 » Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:33 am

No. The culture wars are creating as much material damage to society as they did to A/S conventions.

My point was that the progressive left’s view on race is easily (and probably more) intense and obsessive as any Nazi.

It aligns to (but also transcends) your own disinterest in separating out issues of “culture and community” - which may broadly correlate to race - from issues of “race” - which intersect beliefs of wakandian superiority.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2362

Post by Kirbmarc » Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:38 am

Brive1987 wrote: No. The culture wars are creating as much material damage to society as they did to A/S conventions.

My point was that the progressive left’s view on race is easily (and probably more) intense and obsessive as any Nazi.

It aligns to (but also transcends) your own disinterest in separating out issues of “culture and community” - which may broadly correlate to race - from issues of “race” - which intersect beliefs of wakandian superiority.
Sure, not considering race or identity in general to be important political issues is the exact same thing as being obsessed with race. Nice postmodern deconstruction.


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2364

Post by Brive1987 » Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:47 am

Kirb. You obsessively steer issues of identitarianism and cultural nationalism to race.

It’s what you do.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2365

Post by Kirbmarc » Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:30 am

Brive1987 wrote: Kirb. You obsessively steer issues of identitarianism and cultural nationalism to race.

It’s what you do.
Because they're equally stupid and in practice more often than not they shade into one another. So far no one of the identitarian side has been able to provide any sort of coherent "identity" which is politically and socially beneficial in terms of practical results without shading into tribal signalling. So far no one on the identitarian side has even been able to provide a coherent definition of what exactly is the identity they think it's important to protect, without shading into ancestry.

The "alt-lite" insist that they're NOT talking about race. OK, fine, let's accept this premise. What are they talking about, then? What is Southern's Paris video really about, if it's not about race? Why is Generation Identity obsessed with ancestry? Why do people like Faith Goldy pally around with white supremacists and use their talking points? Why is ancestry considered important when it's about proving the "great replacement" narrative? What are the non-racial values and principles that the "alt-lite" wants to protect? Why are things like the ethnicity of a young woman who wants to play Joan of Arc important?

ALSO, while it's certainly possible to have identitarian movements which aren't about "race", it's also possible that those movements produce hostility and violence comparable to the "race" based ones. Croats, Serbs and Muslim Bosniaks, or Protestant and Catholic Northern Irish, were all of the same "race", but they struggled over identitarian/religious divisions, with horrible results that weren't too far from the results of racial obsessions. The same is true for Shia vs Sunni Iraqis, or for the clusterfuck of the Syrian civil war, or for countless other non-racial identitarian conflicts.

How can we be sure that other forms of identity politics don't degenerate into the same identitarian divisions?

Ultimately, why is identity so important? What is even identity? How is it created, or spread, or maintained?

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2366

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:30 am


Now it's funny.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2367

Post by Sunder » Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:53 am

Popehat rushed to accuse the FBI of leaking details of Stone arrest in order to explain there being cameras on the scene, then had to walk it back after virtually everyone in the universe pointed out that this was not unexpected and CNN sent like two guys, not the army of reporters they'd have likely preferred if they knew for sure in advance and weren't just hedging bets.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2368

Post by Sunder » Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:59 am

Airports are beginning to shut down today. Which means the govt. shutdown will likely be over by tomorrow. But we'll see.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2369

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:45 am

Sunder wrote: Popehat rushed to accuse the FBI of leaking details of Stone arrest in order to explain there being cameras on the scene, then had to walk it back after virtually everyone in the universe pointed out that this was not unexpected and CNN sent like two guys, not the army of reporters they'd have likely preferred if they knew for sure in advance and weren't just hedging bets.
Yeah, Lol what aka Ken White is a supercilious ass who occasionally says funny or insightful things. Last I checked, he didn't correct or acknowledge that he was wrong.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2370

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:47 am

Fucking autocorrect changed Popehat to "lol what."

Oh, and I just heard something about Trump caving.

Also,

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2371

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:54 am

This guy sums is up pretty well,


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2372

Post by free thoughtpolice » Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:12 pm

CaptainFluffyBunny wrote: Fucking autocorrect changed Popehat to "lol what."

Oh, and I just heard something about Trump caving.

Also,
Even the best experts on border security never envisaged that migrants would be able to develop ladder technology to counter the wall. It looks to me like some of them are carrying prayer mats too.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2373

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:17 pm

free thoughtpolice wrote:
CaptainFluffyBunny wrote: Fucking autocorrect changed Popehat to "lol what."

Oh, and I just heard something about Trump caving.

Also,
Even the best experts on border security never envisaged that migrants would be able to develop ladder technology to counter the wall. It looks to me like some of them are carrying prayer mats too.
There's probably technology out there for large drones to ferry them over. But things like paying Border Agents and technology aren't as catchy as "build the wall and crime will fall!!!"

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2374

Post by Old_ones » Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:03 pm

Brive1987 wrote: Did I get odds on Hooters?

It would be so very sad for our Country if the State of the Union were not delivered on time, on schedule, and very importantly, on location!"

No 50b, no SOTU. Amazing to think that the Dems once lived in fear of Trump not abiding by the ref and accepting the election result,
What a joke.

Trump may act like a dictator, but he has a co-equal branch of government to deal which, who are finally asserting their own authority. No rules have been broken, hence Trump's impotent tantrums.

Also, it's no loss if he can't give his SOTU address. It's all going to be made up bullshit anyway, just like everything else he's ever said. He's a pathological liar and probably in the early stages of dementia. Anyone who takes him seriously at this point is mentally incompetent.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2375

Post by Sunder » Sat Jan 26, 2019 7:31 am

Sunder wrote: Airports are beginning to shut down today. Which means the govt. shutdown will likely be over by tomorrow. But we'll see.
Fucking CALLED IT.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2376

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:44 am



Ouch.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2377

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:47 am


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2378

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:50 am

The "Master" deal maker does a costly govt shutdown, struts and bellows, and Pelosi slaps him down. No wall, all this for nothing. If any of you still think Trump is playing 4D chess, you'll have to explain this move to me. Because it seems like he's playing Candyland and he isn't up on the rules.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2379

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:26 am


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2380

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:20 pm


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2381

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:27 pm


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2382

Post by Kirbmarc » Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:42 pm

Harming your economy to own the libs.

And then the libs own you.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2383

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:24 pm



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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2385

Post by Brive1987 » Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:34 pm

Kirbmarc wrote:
Brive1987 wrote: Kirb. You obsessively steer issues of identitarianism and cultural nationalism to race.

It’s what you do.
Because they're equally stupid and in practice more often than not they shade into one another. So far no one of the identitarian side has been able to provide any sort of coherent "identity" which is politically and socially beneficial in terms of practical results without shading into tribal signalling. So far no one on the identitarian side has even been able to provide a coherent definition of what exactly is the identity they think it's important to protect, without shading into ancestry.

The "alt-lite" insist that they're NOT talking about race. OK, fine, let's accept this premise. What are they talking about, then? What is Southern's Paris video really about, if it's not about race? Why is Generation Identity obsessed with ancestry? Why do people like Faith Goldy pally around with white supremacists and use their talking points? Why is ancestry considered important when it's about proving the "great replacement" narrative? What are the non-racial values and principles that the "alt-lite" wants to protect? Why are things like the ethnicity of a young woman who wants to play Joan of Arc important?

ALSO, while it's certainly possible to have identitarian movements which aren't about "race", it's also possible that those movements produce hostility and violence comparable to the "race" based ones. Croats, Serbs and Muslim Bosniaks, or Protestant and Catholic Northern Irish, were all of the same "race", but they struggled over identitarian/religious divisions, with horrible results that weren't too far from the results of racial obsessions. The same is true for Shia vs Sunni Iraqis, or for the clusterfuck of the Syrian civil war, or for countless other non-racial identitarian conflicts.

How can we be sure that other forms of identity politics don't degenerate into the same identitarian divisions?

Ultimately, why is identity so important? What is even identity? How is it created, or spread, or maintained?
Ok. Progress. You accept you draw little distinction between cultural nationalism and Nazi racism. And that you instinctively veer to the latter descriptor in any related discussion.

Plus you are a cultural heritage denier. Apparently because you can quibble with definitional detail.

Meanwhile you blithely ignore the inconvenient fact that “liberalism” itself is far more objectively undeniable than the commonalities of shared heritage, history and location.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2386

Post by Brive1987 » Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:41 pm

free thoughtpolice wrote:
CaptainFluffyBunny wrote: Fucking autocorrect changed Popehat to "lol what."

Oh, and I just heard something about Trump caving.

Also,
https...://mobile.twitter.com/thehill/status/1088881959034589184
Even the best experts on border security never envisaged that migrants would be able to develop ladder technology to counter the wall. It looks to me like some of them are carrying prayer mats too.
Physical obstacles always need to be part of an integrated defence that includes direct observation and/or fire. They should also be arrayed in depth.

Or you can simply forget effective measures and forgo perimeter protection.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2387

Post by Brive1987 » Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:43 pm

Meanwhile you blithely ignore the inconvenient fact that “liberalism” itself is far more objectively undeniable undefinable than the commonalities of shared heritage, history and location.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2388

Post by Brive1987 » Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:47 pm

Did we reach a final consensus on whether Buzzfeed/Covington can be conveniently memory holed “because” rather than accepted as evidence of fake news and the nauseating escalation of violent rhetoric by a broad coalition of “liberal” anti-trumpers?

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2389

Post by Brive1987 » Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:54 pm

“You’re just sorry you got caught”


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2390

Post by Sunder » Sat Jan 26, 2019 5:47 pm

CaptainFluffyBunny wrote: The "Master" deal maker does a costly govt shutdown, struts and bellows, and Pelosi slaps him down. No wall, all this for nothing. If any of you still think Trump is playing 4D chess, you'll have to explain this move to me. Because it seems like he's playing Candyland and he isn't up on the rules.
I think many in the Trump base are going to see it the way Coulter does, but there's still a few who are deluded enough to think this is all part of a grander plan. The spaceship's still coming. Just have more faith.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2391

Post by free thoughtpolice » Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:48 pm

The final showdown with "Nancy"! Coming soon to a fake news site of your choice.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2392

Post by Brive1987 » Sat Jan 26, 2019 7:07 pm

Sunder wrote:
CaptainFluffyBunny wrote: The "Master" deal maker does a costly govt shutdown, struts and bellows, and Pelosi slaps him down. No wall, all this for nothing. If any of you still think Trump is playing 4D chess, you'll have to explain this move to me. Because it seems like he's playing Candyland and he isn't up on the rules.
I think many in the Trump base are going to see it the way Coulter does, but there's still a few who are deluded enough to think this is all part of a grander plan. The spaceship's still coming. Just have more faith.
I assumed Trump was playing a win-win game of either getting his wall and ticking off a(nother) election promise - or painting the Democrats as open-border unpatriotic National subversives.

He may not get the former (it’s not and never has been) in his power to compel Congress to do the will of the people. And the jury is still well and truely out on the latter. That’s a longer play.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2393

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sat Jan 26, 2019 8:06 pm

Brive1987 wrote: Did we reach a final consensus on whether Buzzfeed/Covington can be conveniently memory holed “because” rather than accepted as evidence of fake news and the nauseating escalation of violent rhetoric by a broad coalition of “liberal” anti-trumpers?
That bit is true; none of that was news, it was a Twitter spasm. That said, the deification of the smirking brats by the far-right press was assuredly nearly equally stupid. This fact exonerates the right in no way, shape or form. It is whataboutism, a red herring. "Because they did this bad thing, my team is good and always misrepresented." The press is polarized, which isn't a surprise to anyone paying any attention for the last five years. The idea that there isn't a ridiculous, right-wing presence is instantly dispelled by Fox News and the ever-amusing InfoWars. That said, each side's outlet gets it wrong, and right on occasion.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2394

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sat Jan 26, 2019 8:13 pm

Brive1987 wrote:
Sunder wrote:
CaptainFluffyBunny wrote: The "Master" deal maker does a costly govt shutdown, struts and bellows, and Pelosi slaps him down. No wall, all this for nothing. If any of you still think Trump is playing 4D chess, you'll have to explain this move to me. Because it seems like he's playing Candyland and he isn't up on the rules.
I think many in the Trump base are going to see it the way Coulter does, but there's still a few who are deluded enough to think this is all part of a grander plan. The spaceship's still coming. Just have more faith.
I assumed Trump was playing a win-win game of either getting his wall and ticking off a(nother) election promise - or painting the Democrats as open-border unpatriotic National subversives.

He may not get the former (it’s not and never has been) in his power to compel Congress to do the will of the people. And the jury is still well and truely out on the latter. That’s a longer play.
It was in no way a win or even a draw for Trump. Pelosi had him on a leash. And what is this "will of the people" bullshit? Most Americans aren't for a wall.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source= ... 8602107394

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2395

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sat Jan 26, 2019 8:25 pm

Sunder wrote:
CaptainFluffyBunny wrote: The "Master" deal maker does a costly govt shutdown, struts and bellows, and Pelosi slaps him down. No wall, all this for nothing. If any of you still think Trump is playing 4D chess, you'll have to explain this move to me. Because it seems like he's playing Candyland and he isn't up on the rules.
I think many in the Trump base are going to see it the way Coulter does, but there's still a few who are deluded enough to think this is all part of a grander plan. The spaceship's still coming. Just have more faith.
This hurt Trump. I've been following QAnon with fascination; these are the weirdest people you'll ever see. It's like watching the Genesis of a failed, crowdsourced Scientology. I'd post more of it here, but I fear I'd be boring people (more than usual.)

They're disappearing. The QAnon people are quietly dispersing. Accounts going away, voices falling silent, profiles being changed. What was once a powerful voice on social media is now a mutter. Soon it may go forever into that dark night.

I'll be honest, I will miss those crazy bastards. They spent hours convincing themselves that Trump's misspelled tweets and odd capitalization were secret messages to the faithful. That Democrats were being rounded up and sent to Gitmo, but replaced by body doubles so as to not alarm the public or spook Trump's quarry. The conspiracy theory was swallowed by hundreds of thousands, including, perhaps, a former pitter (or two.)

It's sad to see it die, but it does say something about the shifting tide of Trump's base. It is eroding, even before Mueller drops his bombs.

Brive1987
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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2396

Post by Brive1987 » Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:32 pm

CaptainFluffyBunny wrote:
And what is this "will of the people" bullshit? Most Americans aren't for a wall.
Trump was elected (on the basis of his platform) by “a majority of people in a majority of states” or somfink

:doh:

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2397

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:39 pm

Brive1987 wrote:
CaptainFluffyBunny wrote:
And what is this "will of the people" bullshit? Most Americans aren't for a wall.
Trump was elected (on the basis of his platform) by “a majority of people in a majority of states” or somfink

:doh:
Electoral College. Which failed its sole duty.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2398

Post by Kirbmarc » Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:29 pm

Brive1987 wrote: Ok. Progress. You accept you draw little distinction between cultural nationalism and Nazi racism. And that you instinctively veer to the latter descriptor in any related discussion.
Theoretically they're distinct, in practice in the alt-right they're often confused (see how easily Faith Goldy slips from "defense of culture" to the 14 words, or how Southern makes video about visibile race, then backpedals to "heritage and culture"). Also cultural nationalism is not without its issues (Serbs vs Croats vs Bosniaks, Catholic vs Protestants in Northern Ireland, etc. )
Plus you are a cultural heritage denier. Apparently because you can quibble with definitional detail.
Because cultural heritage is a complex socio-political phenomenon, and when it's inscribed into laws it's been historically likely to be used to attack the rights of minorities.
Meanwhile you blithely ignore the inconvenient fact that “liberalism” itself is far more objectively undefinable than the commonalities of shared heritage, history and location.
Liberalism is also a complex socio-political phenomenon. But the difference is that with all their differences and nuances the nations which have implemented liberal democracy have had less conflicts and less political violence than the the ones based on cultural heritage.

Compare the culturally pluralistic Belgium or Switzerland or United Stated or Canada, where more than one culture have co-existed within a largely liberal democratic structure (with all the political and social differences between those countries) to the clusterfuck of ethno-religious-cultural conflicts in the former Yugoslavian republics, or in Syria.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2399

Post by Kirbmarc » Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:06 am

If you want an objective definition of a socio-political phenomenon which can be applied to ALL cases, you're probably not going to get it. There are always historic, economic, social, religious, cultural geographic differences that produce differences between two places, let alone two countries.

But the bulk of liberalism (freedom of expression, press, speech, separation of church and state, due process, separation of powers, etc.) is more or less found in all nations which are called liberal democracies. You can compare measures of freedom of the press to those of political corruption, or of Human Development Index, or of democratic institutions, or of political and social violence, and you'll find that there is a TREND of correlations between liberal democratic institutions, liberal freedoms, development, and relatively low corruption and political violence.

While on the other hand the link between identitarian movements and political violence is pretty clear, from the Northern Irish conflict to Rwanda, from Syria to Myanmar. Political violence and in general societal instability is also strongly correlated with corruption, lower development and less freedoms.

Sure, there are always exceptions to trends, and you can find flawed liberal democracies with serious corruption issues (i.e. Italy) or, on the other hand, some more identitarian nations which are nonetheless thriving (i.e. Japan) or authoritarian and identitarian clusterfucks which are nonetheless rich and developed (i.e. the oil-rich Gulf Theocracies). But the trends themselves are undeniable:

https://i.imgur.com/hcKvhBS.png

https://i.imgur.com/w32vVBI.png

https://i.imgur.com/mz807Uh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/OihgDHE.png

https://i.imgur.com/3a9E2zH.jpg

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2400

Post by Kirbmarc » Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:48 am

In general, culturally pluralistic, secular liberal democracies are peaceful, prosperous, relatively non-corrupt, and developed. Countries ravaged by identitarian conflicts (whether those conflicts are due to differences in race, religion, culture, or a mix of those) are violent, poorer, more corrupt, and less developed.

Are (and have) ALL identitarian conflicts (been) about race? Of course not, probably not even the majority of them. They are (or have been) about "shared culture" within a group contrasting with "shared culture" within another group. This can be due to religious identifiers (Sunni vs Shia, Catholics vs Protestants, Catholics vs Orthodox, Christians vs Muslims or Buddhist vs Muslims, etc.) or purely cultural identifiers (Turks vs Arabs, Hutu vs Tutsi, Pastho vs Turkmens, etc.).

However the current identitarian movements in Europe, the US, Canada and Australia that gravitate along the "alt-right/alt-lite" label ARE predominantly about race, and only secondarily about religion and culture. Very few in the "alt-right/alt-lite" quibble over religious differences between Protestants and Catholics, or Catholics and Orthodox, even though those differences have been often causes for identitarian conflicts. The divide between Christianity and Islam is often brought up, but more often than not it is racialised, with very few alt-righters focusing over Albanian or Bosniak Muslims, and with a strong association between "Middle Eastern/South Asians" and "Muslim".

On the other hand the visual indicators associated with race are emphasized (such as in Southern's Paris video) and immigration from non-muslim countries like India or China or many Christian-majority South American countries is often the focus.

In the US the main concern of the "alt-right/alt-lite" is immigration from South America, hence the appeal of the Trump wall. Southern American countries are religiously Christian for the most part and they're culturally mixed with strong European influxes (people there predominantly speak Indo-European languages, for example). Catholicism isn't the focus of the "alt-right/alt-lite". Indeed Irish Catholics and Italian Catholics, who were historically subjected to a degree of prejudice in the US for their religious beliefs, are easily accepted in the American alt-right/alt-lite ranks (the current Italian government is even celebrated), despite their cultural and religious differences from WASPs. The Spanish heritage also isn't a problem for most alt-lite/alt-right figures, who are indeed often concerned by non-European immigration to Spain.

The focus on the immigration from Southern American countries to the US is clearly about the perceived race of the immigrants. While most Southern American countries are racially mixed, with a degree of Native American and European ancestry which varies from region to region, plus some Sub-Saharan African ancestry admixture, in the US the perceived "race" of the Southern American immigrants is defined as "Latino" as opposed to "White", and the main concern of the American alt-lite/alt-right IS about the "racial" difference.

In Europe or Canada or Australia the concern is less about the (relatively lower) number of South American immigrants and more about Middle Eastern, North African, Sub-Saharan African and South and East Asian immigration. This is often linked to cultural and religious differences about Islam, especially in Europe, but it's not limited to religion. Sub-Saharan African Christian immigrants are often stigmatized as being part of the "Great Replacement" in European alt-right/alt-lite circles. East and South Asian immigrants to Australia are the focus of many figures in the Australian alt-right/alt-lite, even though they're not Muslims.

On the other hand cultural differences among people perceived to be "white" are minimized or ignored. While historically Eastern and Central European immigrants have been subjected to prejudice and/or discrimination in Western Europe, or Southern European in Norther Europe, today the European, American, Canadian or Australian alt-right openly celebrated Eastern, Central or Southern European governments (Poland, Hungary, Russia, Italy) if they're deemed to be politically aligned with alt-right/alt-lite beliefs.

Italian-Americans or Irish-Americans or Polish/Hungarian/Russian-Americans (or similarly Eastern/Central/Southern European in Canada or Australia) are also accepted and celebrated.

Indeed even you, Brive, while you insist that your focus is about preserving culture, and that you have little to no interest in race, have little problem with Greek or Italian immigrants to Australia, and are focusing more on Chinese and Indian or Sudanese immigrants.

Many in the "alt-right" are explicit about their racial focus. Others swear that race isn't their issue, but in practice they often focus on visual cues historically used to define race, or on narratives historically developed by people with racialised beliefs. It's hard to tell exactly where the focus on race ends and how exactly the "cultural collectives" are race-independent.

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