The Trump Dump!

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1981

Post by free thoughtpolice » Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:52 pm

https://globalnews.ca/news/4757175/dona ... ice-trade/
Canada arrests Chinese VIP on request of US and China is now punishing Canada for our honoring of an extradition treaty. They have arrested 2 Canadian nationals and we have had to cancel trade negotiations with China while they have indicated they will punish Canada even more severely if we don't release her.
Canada has responded by saying that we need to follow our rule of law and abide by treaties we have made with the US. So what did Trump do? Instead of backing us up he takes a dump on the cake and infers it is all a political game by suggesting he will use the arrest as a bargaining chip in trade talks.
Way to screw your allies and announce to the world that your contempt for rule of law.
Trump’s remarks came in a Reuters interview, in which he said: “If I think it’s good for what will be certainly the largest trade deal ever made, which is a very important thing, what’s good for national security, I would certainly intervene if I thought it was necessary.
The president’s comments could complicate matters for Canada, as ex-Canadian diplomat Michael Kovrig was detained this week in a move widely seen as a response to Meng’s apprehension.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1982

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:17 pm

free thoughtpolice wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:52 pm
https://globalnews.ca/news/4757175/dona ... ice-trade/
Canada arrests Chinese VIP on request of US and China is now punishing Canada for our honoring of an extradition treaty. They have arrested 2 Canadian nationals and we have had to cancel trade negotiations with China while they have indicated they will punish Canada even more severely if we don't release her.
Canada has responded by saying that we need to follow our rule of law and abide by treaties we have made with the US. So what did Trump do? Instead of backing us up he takes a dump on the cake and infers it is all a political game by suggesting he will use the arrest as a bargaining chip in trade talks.
Way to screw your allies and announce to the world that your contempt for rule of law.
Trump’s remarks came in a Reuters interview, in which he said: “If I think it’s good for what will be certainly the largest trade deal ever made, which is a very important thing, what’s good for national security, I would certainly intervene if I thought it was necessary.
The president’s comments could complicate matters for Canada, as ex-Canadian diplomat Michael Kovrig was detained this week in a move widely seen as a response to Meng’s apprehension.
Yeah, that's more than a little embarrassing. Trump doesn't understand allies, just stooges and marks. We will have to make it up to you when we get a real president. Somebody a bit more presidential, which Trump has managed to turn into a remarkably low bar.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1983

Post by Sunder » Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:20 am

People were floating Kushner's name for Chief of Staff as a fucking joke but now Trump's saying he's one of the finalists.


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1984

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:18 pm



Poor little fella.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1985

Post by Steersman » Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:48 pm

CaptainFluffyBunny wrote:

Poor little fella.
LoL. I can tell that you're all broken up ... :( :roll: :P

Still haven't quite gotten the idea of lesser of two weevils, methinks. There are, no doubt, some "warts" on the man, but the "swamp" was rather clearly in need of some "draining". Even if he's shown some tendency to extending it ...

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1986

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:52 pm

Can't indict a sitting president? Maybe you can...

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1987

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:00 pm

Steersman wrote:
CaptainFluffyBunny wrote:

Poor little fella.
LoL. I can tell that you're all broken up ... :( :roll: :P

Still haven't quite gotten the idea of lesser of two weevils, methinks. There are, no doubt, some "warts" on the man, but the "swamp" was rather clearly in need of some "draining". Even if he's shown some tendency to extending it ...
He has done nothing but enable climate-deniers, religious nutbars and cronyism. His tax package is disastrous, his foreign policy ludicrous and his trade war is endangering the world economy. He is corrupt beyond any reasonable doubt, and the odds of him finishing his term have dropped sharply in recent weeks (although I still feel it likely that he will.) The only demonstrable thing that happened was DeVos "let's arm teachers in case of bears" removing the ludicrous Title IX bullshit.

So what would Hillary Clinton have done, in your opinion, that would have been worse than this rolling dumpster fire of an administration?

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1988

Post by Steersman » Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:34 pm

CaptainFluffyBunny wrote:
Steersman wrote:
CaptainFluffyBunny wrote:

Code: Select all

https://mobile.twitter.com/thehill/status/1074032623125782528
Poor little fella.
LoL. I can tell that you're all broken up ... :( :roll: :P

Still haven't quite gotten the idea of lesser of two weevils, methinks. There are, no doubt, some "warts" on the man, but the "swamp" was rather clearly in need of some "draining". Even if he's shown some tendency to extending it ...
He has done nothing but enable climate-deniers, religious nutbars and cronyism. His tax package is disastrous, his foreign policy ludicrous and his trade war is endangering the world economy. He is corrupt beyond any reasonable doubt, and the odds of him finishing his term have dropped sharply in recent weeks (although I still feel it likely that he will.) The only demonstrable thing that happened was DeVos "let's arm teachers in case of bears" removing the ludicrous Title IX bullshit.

So what would Hillary Clinton have done, in your opinion, that would have been worse than this rolling dumpster fire of an administration?
Maybe a fair summary. But you might consider this recent argument by Kirbmarc - no great friend or supporter of Trump - earlier in the thread:
It's a shame that it took Trump to reveal to the American public the extent of Saudi and/or Qatari influence in US politics. But at least it's finally happening. Perhaps Trump's egregious violation of norms and ethics has the silver lining of making Americans less naive.
Clearly a great deal of "rot" in the system - and a rather large amount of that in the baggage train of Clinton & Obama:











Etc., etc., etc.

Rather moot whether the cure will be worse than the disease. But seems rather clear that the American "Ship of State" - and, maybe arguably, the whole world - was headed for the rocks before Trump: desperate times very frequently call for, or bring to the fore, desperate measures.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1989

Post by Sunder » Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:10 pm

I'm not upset at people who gambled on Trump in 2016 thinking that the big risk/potentially big reward scenario was more appealing than the safe bet on the status quo that was Clinton.

But now's well past time to admit the bet didn't pay off, and that despite however rotten you thought Washington was a year or two ago it's now so smelly the flies won't touch it.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1990

Post by Sunder » Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:10 pm

I'm not upset at people who gambled on Trump in 2016 thinking that the big risk/potentially big reward scenario was more appealing than the safe bet on the status quo that was Clinton.

But now's well past time to admit the bet didn't pay off, and that despite however rotten you thought Washington was a year or two ago it's now so smelly the flies won't touch it.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1991

Post by free thoughtpolice » Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:12 pm

My sources say that Clinton would have forced Trudeau to provide free hookers to senior citizens in BC if she would have won the election. That picture of the briefcase full of money was just part of the funding. When the religious right in the US found out about her plan, they banded together with Russia to support Trump to defeat this much needed service. Remember, Putin is against prostitution even though Russia has the world's best hookers.
You have been duped into going against your own self interests Steersman.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1992

Post by Steersman » Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:36 pm

free thoughtpolice wrote: My sources say that Clinton would have forced Trudeau to provide free hookers to senior citizens in BC if she would have won the election. That picture of the briefcase full of money was just part of the funding. When the religious right in the US found out about her plan, they banded together with Russia to support Trump to defeat this much needed service. Remember, Putin is against prostitution even though Russia has the world's best hookers.

You have been duped into going against your own self interests Steersman.
Oh noes! How could I have been so blind? Nirvana was within reach and I blew it! ... ;-)


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1993

Post by Kirbmarc » Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:38 pm

Steersman wrote:Rather moot whether the cure will be worse than the disease. But seems rather clear that the American "Ship of State" - and, maybe arguably, the whole world - was headed for the rocks before Trump: desperate times very frequently call for, or bring to the fore, desperate measures.
The ship of state was rotten before, but now it's the freaking Titanic.

The solution to structural problems is not to put a corrupt moron who panders to identitarian far-righters in charge.

Trump is only useful as a warning about how the US presidency can go badly. Hopefully his fall will wake up people to other problems, in the same way people created laws to prevent fires after people died in a horrific fire-related accident.

What you do is cheer for the fire and argue that those who set it up were actually heroes, because the building was a fire hazard anyway.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1994

Post by Kirbmarc » Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:45 pm

Basically my comment was "it's a shame that it took a terrible fire for people to take fire hazards seriously. We could have avoided all this. Hopefully people will take better precautions in the future"

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1995

Post by Steersman » Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:17 pm

Sunder wrote: I'm not upset at people who gambled on Trump in 2016 thinking that the big risk/potentially big reward scenario was more appealing than the safe bet on the status quo that was Clinton.

But now's well past time to admit the bet didn't pay off, and that despite however rotten you thought Washington was a year or two ago it's now so smelly the flies won't touch it.
LoL. Not that you're (doubly) biased or anything like that ... ;-)

As mentioned earlier, I bought and have just started reading Anne Marie Waters' Beyond Terror - highly recommended - and this seems close to the crux of the matter, and some evidence that Trump is STILL the better bet:
Perhaps even more worrying is the risk to free speech in the United States. As outlined in Silent Conquest, the Obama administration co-sponsored a resolution at the United Nations which sought to outlaw defamation of Islam across the globe. Obama was unambiguous in his endorsement of such an idea:
Obama wrote:So I have known Islam on three continents before coming to the region where it was first revealed. That experience guides my conviction that partnership between America and Islam must be based on what Islam is, not what it isn't. And I consider it part of my responsibility as President of the United States to fight against negative stereotypes of Islam wherever they appear.
[pg 19]
While Obama makes some reasonable points in the NYTimes article that Waters quoted from, one can't help but get the feeling that his "good intentions" - betraying a highly problematic and quite untenable bias, if not manifest and wooly-minded ignorance, in favour of Islam - is part and parcel of the "quagmire" he made out of Syria because he was, apparently, congenitally unable to say "Islamic terrorism". That he refused to face the fact that Islam is, as Anthony Flew put, "flatly incompatible with democracy & human rights".

As I said earlier, I'm not particularly happy with Trump's position on Khashoggi getting whacked - though the whackee wasn't much less black than the whacker. But at least Saudi Arabia is far more supportive - apparently - of Israel's right to exist - than is Iran - a great "friend" of Obama and Clinton - who seem keen to see another holocaust perpetrated on the Jews. You - and CFB - might put Trump, drawing a line in the sand, moving the US embassy to Jerusalem - which more than a few other countries are following suit on - as something to be added to the positive side of his ledger. And which outweighs a great many of his other putative "sins" ...

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1996

Post by Steersman » Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:48 pm

Kirbmarc wrote:
Steersman wrote:Rather moot whether the cure will be worse than the disease. But seems rather clear that the American "Ship of State" - and, maybe arguably, the whole world - was headed for the rocks before Trump: desperate times very frequently call for, or bring to the fore, desperate measures.
The ship of state was rotten before, but now it's the freaking Titanic.
:-) There may be some truth to that ...
Kirbmarc wrote: The solution to structural problems is not to put a corrupt moron who panders to identitarian far-righters in charge.
See "lesser of two evils, principle of" ... That kind of looks like Monday-morning quarterbacking.

Those with their fingers more on the pulse of American politics certainly had some valid objections to Trump before the fact. But the fact was that the choice - on the field, so to speak - was between Clinton and Trump; t'weren't no others on the table. Kind of think that the ship of state was already the Titanic: Trump has already clearly plugged a few of the holes, highlighted some of the systemic rot that led to those holes in the first place, even if he may have added a few others.

But the whole problematic dichotomy between the perspectives of globalism and nationalism looks to have been - may still be - the civilized (?) world's fatal flaw - and the largest whole of the lot in the "Titanic". But Obama Mk. II sure the fuck wasn't doing anything at all to address it. Which Trump is rather clearly doing, if somewhat imperfectly; something else to put on the positive side of his ledger.
Kirbmarc wrote: Trump is only useful as a warning about how the US presidency can go badly. Hopefully his fall will wake up people to other problems, in the same way people created laws to prevent fires after people died in a horrific fire-related accident.
Don't think it's particularly wise to be looking forward to "his fall". Particularly without someone in the wings ready to "accentuate" his positive contributions while "eliminating" his negative ones. And I sure don't see any contenders.

Though I'll agree about "fire-related accidents". Even if the Grenfell fire suggests that people are slow learners and periodically need further lessons to refresh their memories. And in the case of Trump, I think the lesson, or a lesson, is that partisan politics doesn't really help anyone - a situation that is not exactly unique to the US. Kennedy's aphorism springs to mind:

Quotes_Kennedy_Revolution.jpg
(82.18 KiB) Downloaded 155 times
Kirbmarc wrote: What you do is cheer for the fire and argue that those who set it up were actually heroes, because the building was a fire hazard anyway.
"It's an ill-wind that doesn't blow someone some good" ... ;-) Apropos of, even (!!11!!) CFB concedes that DeVos Title IX was a step in the right direction.

So it's less a case of "cheering for the fire", than in cheering for someone finally willing to call a spade a fucken shovel.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1997

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sat Dec 15, 2018 7:57 pm

Trump will decimate the Republican party and leave conservatives adrift. The very causes you espouse, Steersman, will be made more marginal by Trump. You can bet on it.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1998

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:35 pm


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#1999

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:36 pm

H/T Skeptickle.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2000

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:38 pm



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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2002

Post by Old_ones » Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:00 pm

CaptainFluffyBunny wrote: Trump will decimate the Republican party and leave conservatives adrift. The very causes you espouse, Steersman, will be made more marginal by Trump. You can bet on it.
I sure hope so.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2003

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:53 pm


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2004

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:56 pm

Old_ones wrote:
CaptainFluffyBunny wrote: Trump will decimate the Republican party and leave conservatives adrift. The very causes you espouse, Steersman, will be made more marginal by Trump. You can bet on it.
I sure hope so.
They mostly deserve it, but I fear the power of an unchallenged far-left. The left has compassion, but sometimes lacks the courage to confront reality.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2005

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:14 pm

Trump being the death of the conservative movement, an eloquent eulogy-

https://www.weeklystandard.com/william- ... ry-of-time

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2006

Post by Old_ones » Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:22 am

CaptainFluffyBunny wrote:
Old_ones wrote:
CaptainFluffyBunny wrote: Trump will decimate the Republican party and leave conservatives adrift. The very causes you espouse, Steersman, will be made more marginal by Trump. You can bet on it.
I sure hope so.
They mostly deserve it, but I fear the power of an unchallenged far-left. The left has compassion, but sometimes lacks the courage to confront reality.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not in favor of single party Democratic rule for the rest of history, but the contemporary Republican party needs a time out really fucking bad. Instead of figuring out a message that resonates broadly, they've been relying on structural advantages, corrupt practices and pandering to the dumbest people on the planet (i.e. evangelical christians) to win elections. They need to rethink themselves and start standing for something other than more tax cuts for the super-wealthy and banning abortion. Ideally that could happen without a catastrophe, but I was hoping for them to moderate and modernize after the W years, and they only got more extreme and ridiculous. Maybe the old elephant needs to die and be replaced by the Libertarians, IDK. I hope they don't stay the course after this one because finding a worse candidate than trump would be really difficult, and Ted Bundy is already dead, so they can't run him.

The far left is a concern for me as well , but I don't think they have a lot of representation in Washington yet. There are a few congress people like Gillibrand who make noises that indicate they are willing to pander to the SJWs, which makes me nervous. Outside of that, and bad title ix policy, I don't think the Democratic party has come to the precipice yet. They'll probably get there during the presidency that follows trump's. Once we start seeing buzzwords like "white privilege" or "intersectionality" show up in bills being debated by congress, we'll know that we are there. I hope the Democrats are better at dealing with the SJWs than the republicans were with the religious right, because to me they represent the same mind rot, and they will damage the party regardless of how the republicans are doing. If the Democrats can't draw lines about what nonsense they aren't willing to promote then the crazies will no doubt take over and turn the whole thing into Freethoughtblogs.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2007

Post by Old_ones » Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:59 am

Steersman wrote:
CaptainFluffyBunny wrote:
Steersman wrote:
CaptainFluffyBunny wrote:

Code: Select all

https://mobile.twitter.com/thehill/status/1074032623125782528
Poor little fella.
LoL. I can tell that you're all broken up ... :( :roll: :P

Still haven't quite gotten the idea of lesser of two weevils, methinks. There are, no doubt, some "warts" on the man, but the "swamp" was rather clearly in need of some "draining". Even if he's shown some tendency to extending it ...
He has done nothing but enable climate-deniers, religious nutbars and cronyism. His tax package is disastrous, his foreign policy ludicrous and his trade war is endangering the world economy. He is corrupt beyond any reasonable doubt, and the odds of him finishing his term have dropped sharply in recent weeks (although I still feel it likely that he will.) The only demonstrable thing that happened was DeVos "let's arm teachers in case of bears" removing the ludicrous Title IX bullshit.

So what would Hillary Clinton have done, in your opinion, that would have been worse than this rolling dumpster fire of an administration?
Maybe a fair summary. But you might consider this recent argument by Kirbmarc - no great friend or supporter of Trump - earlier in the thread:
It's a shame that it took Trump to reveal to the American public the extent of Saudi and/or Qatari influence in US politics. But at least it's finally happening. Perhaps Trump's egregious violation of norms and ethics has the silver lining of making Americans less naive.
Clearly a great deal of "rot" in the system - and a rather large amount of that in the baggage train of Clinton & Obama:

TMURPH88/status/1073984310687006720

jamesmassola/status/1073838858121302016

Woke2008/status/1073811333353754625

AltFawn/status/1073817447491284992

AmyMek/status/1073441645339795458

Etc., etc., etc.

Rather moot whether the cure will be worse than the disease. But seems rather clear that the American "Ship of State" - and, maybe arguably, the whole world - was headed for the rocks before Trump: desperate times very frequently call for, or bring to the fore, desperate measures.
More bullshit from the right wing propaganda machine. Obama had republicans investigating him and clinton his entire presidency. They got nothing. Zero indictments, zero convictions. In ten years that'll still be the case, and Trump will be written about as the most criminal president in history. When republicans are accused of something, they always project it onto the democrats.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2008

Post by free thoughtpolice » Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:59 am

He read some of the first link.
Obama... is so deeply corrupt, though that may have been a necessary condition. It continues to amaze that someone who spent a lifetime skating away from the law, stiffing creditors, and running scams... could actually be elected to the highest post in the land.
It turns out Steers was right all along.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2009

Post by Steersman » Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:13 pm

free thoughtpolice wrote:
He read some of the first link.
Obama... is so deeply corrupt, though that may have been a necessary condition. It continues to amaze that someone who spent a lifetime skating away from the law, stiffing creditors, and running scams... could actually be elected to the highest post in the land.
It turns out Steers was right all along.
LoL. The benefits - or at least the problematic consequences - of a bias in selecting which dots to connect.

But methinks that that is largely the whole problem with public discourse these days: virtually everyone has their own biases, and more or less refuses to address them or actually listen to the perspectives of other people. In case you missed it, my kick at that particular kitty (cis & trans) in a Medium post (Horns of a Dilemma: Tyrannies of the Subjective and Objective Narratives); a salient quote therefrom:
Shermer wrote:As we saw in the previous chapter, politics is filled with self-justifying rationalizations. Democrats see the world through liberal-tinted glasses, while Republicans filter it through conservative shaded glasses. When you listen to both “conservative talk radio” and “progressive talk radio” you will hear current events interpreted in ways that are 180 degrees out of phase. So incongruent are the interpretations of even the simplest goings-on in the daily news that you wonder if they can possibly be talking about the same event.
"Amen" to that.

America has a lot going for it - and one might reasonably argue that it is humanity's last best hope. But the egregious, cut-off-your-nose-to-spite-your-face level of partisanship may well "put the quietus" to its noble efforts, if not yet be the death of us all.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2010

Post by MarcusAu » Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:48 am

Apropos of nothing or whoever...





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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2011

Post by Sunder » Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:37 pm


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2012

Post by Steersman » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:24 pm

Sunder wrote:

Code: Select all

https://twitter.com/nycsouthpaw/status/1074752309400346627
I take it that you're not impressed ...

Can't say that I follow all - even many - of the convolutions, but it seems many others are also less than impressed with the DOJ's supposed "integrity":



Kind of looks like the wheels are coming off the Trump train which might be a shame for many reasons. Seems he'll be lucky to survive just by full and complete divestiture - wasn't that something he was supposed to have done to begin with?

However, given the reported large increases in net worth by people like the Clintons & Obama, hard not to see that and Trump's travails as a pot-and-kettle scenario.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2013

Post by Steersman » Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:13 pm

Old_ones wrote:
Steersman wrote: <snip>
Clearly a great deal of "rot" in the system - and a rather large amount of that in the baggage train of Clinton & Obama:

TMURPH88/status/1073984310687006720

jamesmassola/status/1073838858121302016

Woke2008/status/1073811333353754625

AltFawn/status/1073817447491284992

AmyMek/status/1073441645339795458

Etc., etc., etc.

Rather moot whether the cure will be worse than the disease. But seems rather clear that the American "Ship of State" - and, maybe arguably, the whole world - was headed for the rocks before Trump: desperate times very frequently call for, or bring to the fore, desperate measures.
More bullshit from the right wing propaganda machine. Obama had republicans investigating him and clinton his entire presidency. They got nothing. Zero indictments, zero convictions. In ten years that'll still be the case, and Trump will be written about as the most criminal president in history. When republicans are accused of something, they always project it onto the democrats.
Maybe you have a point or two - Trump certainly looks to be grabbing at straws relative to the "19,000 'Lost' Strzok and Page Texts". Although that Mueller apparently declined further services from them might reasonably be construed as "suspicious":
The Independent wrote:The two agents – who have since left the FBI and were swiftly removed from Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election – were not found to have committed any wrongdoing related to the texts going unaccounted for during the technical error.
But I wonder whether you seriously think the Carter article is just a "nothing-burger"?
Carter wrote:The Clinton Foundation operated as a foreign agent ‘early in its life’ and ‘throughout it’s existence’ and did not operate as a 501c3 charitable foundation as required by its and is not entitled to its status as a nonprofit, alleged two highly qualified forensic investigators, accompanied by three other investigators, said in explosive testimony Thursday to the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee.
And I wonder whether you seriously think that the "Islamic threat" Amy Mek and many others have been referring to is just starting at shadows.

Trump may well turn out to be "the most criminal president in history" - though the field of contenders seems well populated. But don't think it helps to be turning, apparently, a blind eye to some apparently credible evidence of malfeasance, at best, on the Democrat side.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2014

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:45 pm

Whataboutism, it's where it's at!

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2015

Post by Steersman » Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:31 pm

CaptainFluffyBunny wrote: Whataboutism, it's where it's at!
LoL.

As some wiseman - a wiseguy, at least - once said:
All [Republicans/Democrats] good is even more stupid than all [Democrats/Republicans] bad.
;-)

You might give some thought to why America in particular seems so crippled with partisanship, if not because of, in part, my tribe, right or wrong. Accepting "flaws" in one's own tribe, some "motes" in one's own eyes, seems to go some distance to getting those in the other tribe to do likewise.

See: Truth and Reconciliation Commission (South Africa)

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2016

Post by Kirbmarc » Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:43 pm

MarcusAu wrote: Apropos of nothing or whoever...




When Ben Shapiro of all people is more willing to (mildly) criticize Trump than you, you can't seriously call yourself a centrist or a liberal. Sargon has undoubtedly gone full right-wing, probably even far-right.

Trump is jumping from one crazy, conspiratorial or authoritarian tweet to the next, and he's taking the entire Twitter (and some not insignificant parts of the United States and the world) down with him on a merry-go-round of insanity. It's Twitter trolling to insane degrees, only the troll is in charge of the executive power of one of the most powerful (if not THE most powerful) nations of the world.

If Trump were just some sort of parody account, I'd probably find him funny, as an example of dark satire. But he's real, and he's the president of the United States, so he's about as funny as someone playing with dynamite sticks next to a retirement home.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2017

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:32 pm


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2018

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:49 pm


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2019

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:16 pm


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2020

Post by Lsuoma » Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:36 pm

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2021

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:37 pm


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2022

Post by Kirbmarc » Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:07 pm

Meacham's remarks came as he discussed the Watergate investigation of President Nixon. He noted that Nixon's downfall coincided with investigations and an economic downturn.

"What begins to happen in 1974, is you have the investigations, but you also have the economy souring," he said. "And that's something to watch. One barometer about what's going to happen to President Trump is ... what the markets are doing."
I happen to agree and think that the strong economic trend that Trump inherited and subsidized with tax cuts is what is keeping him afloat, at least until the bubble bursts. If the US economy tanks, his ass is grass.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2023

Post by Steersman » Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:53 pm

"Presidential historian: Trump's actions may be ...."; looks a bit tenuous at best.

But I wonder where you - et al - were when Clinton & Obama exhibited what might be construed as substantially more treasonous than what Trump is supposedly guilty of:



Obama tells Russia's Medvedev more flexibility after election

Tom Cotton: Hillary Clinton pushed reset with Russia months after it invaded Georgia



Not that you and your fellow-travelers have your thumb on the scales or anything like that ...

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2024

Post by free thoughtpolice » Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:09 pm

Steersman wrote:
But I wonder where you - et al - were when Clinton & Obama exhibited what might be construed as substantially more treasonous than what Trump is supposedly guilty of:
FFS you really don't get it do you? Trying to improve relations with Russia isn't the criminal behavior that Trump is suspected of.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2025

Post by Steersman » Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:35 pm

free thoughtpolice wrote: Steersman wrote:
But I wonder where you - et al - were when Clinton & Obama exhibited what might be construed as substantially more treasonous than what Trump is supposedly guilty of:
FFS you really don't get it do you? Trying to improve relations with Russia isn't the criminal behavior that Trump is suspected of.
FFS, it doesn't have to be the same thing to qualify as treason ...

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2026

Post by Old_ones » Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:38 pm

Kirbmarc wrote:
MarcusAu wrote: Apropos of nothing or whoever...




When Ben Shapiro of all people is more willing to (mildly) criticize Trump than you, you can't seriously call yourself a centrist or a liberal. Sargon has undoubtedly gone full right-wing, probably even far-right.
He's gone full kipper.


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2027

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:49 pm


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2028

Post by free thoughtpolice » Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:54 pm

I bet the full size portrait fetches big bucks. Sadly.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2029

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:58 pm

free thoughtpolice wrote:
I bet the full size portrait fetches big bucks. Sadly.
I am hoping someone with big pockets and an animus against Trump decides to deflate his ego a bit. Perhaps his ex-wives or stiffed business partners.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2030

Post by Old_ones » Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:04 pm

NBC News wrote:
Flynn hearing leaves the far right's conspiracy theorists wanting

A year-old conspiracy theory simmering in both far-right message boards and mainstream conservative publications that predicted former national security advisor Michael Flynn would be exonerated fell apart on Tuesday at his sentencing hearing, leaving believers perplexed.

The rumors, which were pushed heavily by believers in the Qanon conspiracy theory in recent days, predicted that Judge Emmett Sullivan would throw out Flynn’s guilty plea and reprimand Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s team for nefarious investigating practices.

In reality, Sullivan excoriated Flynn, saying that “arguably, you sold your country out” by working as an unregistered foreign agent to Turkey while advising President Donald Trump during his candidacy and clarifying with Flynn that he did not wish to challenge the circumstances under which he was interviewed by the FBI. Flynn's defense attorneys suggested last week that he had somehow been entrapped into lying to the FBI.
https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/f ... ng-n949626


:lol:

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2031

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:04 pm


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2032

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:06 pm

Steers, you like little cartoons...
DuwEWLCXcAA4u_t.jpeg
(80.08 KiB) Downloaded 39 times
DuwEWLDX4AA1JxT.jpeg
(163.23 KiB) Downloaded 39 times

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2033

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:19 pm

Old_ones wrote:
NBC News wrote:
Flynn hearing leaves the far right's conspiracy theorists wanting

A year-old conspiracy theory simmering in both far-right message boards and mainstream conservative publications that predicted former national security advisor Michael Flynn would be exonerated fell apart on Tuesday at his sentencing hearing, leaving believers perplexed.

The rumors, which were pushed heavily by believers in the Qanon conspiracy theory in recent days, predicted that Judge Emmett Sullivan would throw out Flynn’s guilty plea and reprimand Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s team for nefarious investigating practices.

In reality, Sullivan excoriated Flynn, saying that “arguably, you sold your country out” by working as an unregistered foreign agent to Turkey while advising President Donald Trump during his candidacy and clarifying with Flynn that he did not wish to challenge the circumstances under which he was interviewed by the FBI. Flynn's defense attorneys suggested last week that he had somehow been entrapped into lying to the FBI.
https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/f ... ng-n949626


:lol:
If you think that's funny (and it is) follow the convoluted conspiracies of QAnon. Trump, lizard-people and Hillary lookalikes. I'd say you couldn't make it up, but somebody is.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2034

Post by Steersman » Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:04 pm

CaptainFluffyBunny wrote: Steers, you like little cartoons...
DuwEWLCXcAA4u_t.jpeg
DuwEWLDX4AA1JxT.jpeg
:-) Certainly some good ones, some less accurate than others:


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2035

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:48 pm

Never check Twitter just before bed.


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2036

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:57 pm


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2037

Post by Steersman » Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:39 am

CaptainFluffyBunny wrote: Never check Twitter just before bed.

Code: Select all

https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1075197395892404231
https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1075197397217828864
Know the feeling about "one last check of Twitter before turning the lights out" ...

But while I'll readily concede that Trump has his "warts" - so to speak, your apparently sarcastic readiness to throw stones at him, at least on the issue of immigration and the border wall, doesn't look particularly credible. For instance, have you, perchance, ever read any facts and figures on the topic? This Federalist article for example?
No, Americans Who Want Border Security Aren’t Anti-Immigrant

After accounting for taxes illegal immigrants pay, we’re still supporting them to the tune of some $123 billion. Don’t we need that money for the opioid crisis, infrastructure, and aircraft carriers?

A recent Quinnipiac poll confirms what most of us already know: Republicans favor a border wall, Democrats don’t. In April, 81 percent of Republicans favored a wall, while only 4 percent of Democrats did.

In the eyes of the Left, this makes Republicans “the bad guys.” They are portrayed as a stain on our national character — “That’s not who we are” — and a shameful blight on our heritage — “We’re a nation of immigrants.” Worst of all, they are portrayed as anti-immigrant.

But they’re not. They’re anti-illegal immigration, and there’s a big difference. It isn’t personal. ....

Public schools face enough of a challenge trying to meet the needs of children from a variety of immigrant and non-immigrant backgrounds. Adding large numbers of children from illegal immigrant homes is wildly unfair to the children who have a right to be here.

It’s not personal. Republicans aren’t anti-immigrant. They’re anti-illegal immigration. It’s the basis of any society to prioritize its resources for its own members rather than diverting them to people in other societies. Our society is our responsibility, their societies are their responsibility. What’s wrong with a wall?
Assuming that the author, Donna Carol Voss, is reasonably accurate in her figures ($123 billion net for illegal immigrants), then Trump's figures look to be a major underestimation.

Although I'll concede that that $123 billion is apparently a yearly cost for those already in the US, but a wall would certainly seem to go some distance in preventing its increase.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2038

Post by Steersman » Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:01 am

Old_ones wrote:
NBC News wrote:
Flynn hearing leaves the far right's conspiracy theorists wanting

A year-old conspiracy theory simmering in both far-right message boards and mainstream conservative publications that predicted former national security advisor Michael Flynn would be exonerated fell apart on Tuesday at his sentencing hearing, leaving believers perplexed.

The rumors, which were pushed heavily by believers in the Qanon conspiracy theory in recent days, predicted that Judge Emmett Sullivan would throw out Flynn’s guilty plea and reprimand Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s team for nefarious investigating practices.

In reality, Sullivan excoriated Flynn, saying that “arguably, you sold your country out” by working as an unregistered foreign agent to Turkey while advising President Donald Trump during his candidacy and clarifying with Flynn that he did not wish to challenge the circumstances under which he was interviewed by the FBI. Flynn's defense attorneys suggested last week that he had somehow been entrapped into lying to the FBI.
https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/f ... ng-n949626

:lol:
"arguably, you sold your country out"? I can argue that 2+2=5 but that doesn't mean it's right. And WTF is the judge doing by saying that? Isn't he supposed to be judging on the basis of facts and cogent arguments? Sure would like to know what Flynn has specifically been charged with, and what was the evidence that was put on the table in support of those charges.

Certainly seems Flynn has been a little careless at best, and maybe a little bit naive about Islam and Turkey. But he certainly seems to have raised some good questions about the too-cozy relationship between the Clintons and Fethullah Gülen:
Our ally Turkey is in crisis and needs our support

BY LT. Gen. Michael T. Flynn (R) - 11/08/16 05:46 PM EST

It is fair to say that most Americans don’t know exactly what to make of our ally Turkey these days, as it endures a prolonged political crisis that challenges its long-term stability. The U.S. media is doing a bang-up job of reporting the Erdoğan government’s crackdown on dissidents, but it’s not putting it into perspective. ....

The primary bone of contention between the U.S. and Turkey is Fethullah Gülen, a shady Islamic mullah residing in Pennsylvania whom former President Clinton once called his “friend” in a well circulated video. ....

To add insult to injury, American taxpayers are helping finance Gülen’s 160 charter schools in the United States. These schools have been granted more H1-B visas than Google. It is inconceivable that our visa officers have approved thousands of visas for English teachers whose English is incomprehensible. A CBS “60 Minutes” program documented a conversation with one such imported English teacher from Turkey. Several lawsuits, including some in Ohio and Texas, point to irregularities in the operation of these schools.



....

The forces of radical Islam derive their ideology from radical clerics like Gülen, who is running a scam. We should not provide him safe haven. In this crisis, it is imperative that we remember who our real friends are.
Moot which is blacker - Fethullah Gülen or Erdoğan - but the former is in your - or the American's - backyard, and looks to have problematic connections to the Muslim Brotherhood. Bit of a dog's breakfast, but Flynn may have had some justifications for his criticisms of Obama's & Clinton's policies towards Turkey. Even if he may not as careful as he should have been to stay within the lines.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2039

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:36 am

The wall is a stunt. Border agents didn't want it, it will do environmental damage, and be a costly eyesore and a black mark on our relations with Mexico, a important trading partner. It is arguable how much good it will do in deterring illegal immigrants. It was something Trump could say that simple-minded people could visualize and understand.

I have friends, long-time friends that work as border agents. I am not against securing our borders, but I am against costly and stupid stunts like the wall. I am against inhumane treatment of anyone, be it POWs or families crossing the border. I am especially against petty jingoism and crass idiocy. The Republicans had the big three and nada on immigration reform. They just wanna look tough to impress the gullible. It appears to be working.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#2040

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:22 am

Steersman wrote:
Old_ones wrote:
NBC News wrote:
Flynn hearing leaves the far right's conspiracy theorists wanting

A year-old conspiracy theory simmering in both far-right message boards and mainstream conservative publications that predicted former national security advisor Michael Flynn would be exonerated fell apart on Tuesday at his sentencing hearing, leaving believers perplexed.

The rumors, which were pushed heavily by believers in the Qanon conspiracy theory in recent days, predicted that Judge Emmett Sullivan would throw out Flynn’s guilty plea and reprimand Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s team for nefarious investigating practices.

In reality, Sullivan excoriated Flynn, saying that “arguably, you sold your country out” by working as an unregistered foreign agent to Turkey while advising President Donald Trump during his candidacy and clarifying with Flynn that he did not wish to challenge the circumstances under which he was interviewed by the FBI. Flynn's defense attorneys suggested last week that he had somehow been entrapped into lying to the FBI.
https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/f ... ng-n949626

:lol:
"arguably, you sold your country out"? I can argue that 2+2=5 but that doesn't mean it's right. And WTF is the judge doing by saying that? Isn't he supposed to be judging on the basis of facts and cogent arguments? Sure would like to know what Flynn has specifically been charged with, and what was the evidence that was put on the table in support of those charges.
Oh, dear God. Flynn was working as an unregistered agent for Turkey, in Erogan's pocket. He did backdoor deals with the Russians, and the judge said that because he has the full range of facts.

Talk about head in the sand...Steersman, why do you suppose that all the other Trump fans have abandoned this thread? It isn't a thumb on the scales to acknowledge Trump is in serious legal peril, and prosecutors have tied him to at least two felonies. The only reason he isn't indicted is that he's a sitting president. They have a literal ton of evidence against him. Do try to follow all the bits of this thread; this isn't speculation, the facts are coming in and a reasonable assessment is that Trump is a crook, possibly a traitor.

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