Roman History

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Phil_Giordana_FCD
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Roman History

#1

Post by Phil_Giordana_FCD »

Here's a thread for Rome enthusiasts.

Michael K Gray wrote:
Phil_Giordana_FCD wrote:I was just arguing that the Empire relying on exponential growth seems factually wrong to me.
Shades of Amy?
It feels right therefore...
Phil_Giordana_FCD wrote:I believe it was a self sustained entity, and didn't "need" more growth after the Hadrian Wall and the Rhine river were established as final borders (to the North, at least). I may very well be entirely wrong about this, though.
The Roman Empire relied on profit to fund its empire.
Profit requires an excess of input over output.
An energy imbalance.
This is 'do-able' if one's outputs are (at best) less than the long-term naturally harvestable energy inputs from sunshine, wind, tidal, geothermal, and neutrino flux.
When combined with exploitation of local resources with which to manifest the realisation of these sources, the Roman Empire, the Incas, the Rapa Nui, the USA, exhibit the ultimate consequence of Malthus' unique and seminal observation.
Vis: That consumption will inevitably outstrip growth.
It has yet to be proven false.
Phil_Giordana_FCD wrote:Fascinating stuff anyway. New thread for Roman history?
Start one.
Done!

If I must really be honest, I think we (southern Europeans) are still perpetuating the Roman Empire's culture in many ways. Our culture, laws, political system, food...etc all seem to stem from Rome. I know I'm not being very skeptical about this, but it's an illusion I really enjoy. I'm going to brag for a second and state that I live within walking distance of some fabulous Roman ruins (Cemenelum). Also a couple hours driving distance from Arles, Orange, Vaison-La-Romaine, Nimes... My mother lives in Périgueux (Vesuna), where you can find one of the most elegant archeological museums ever conceived...

And I eat Pissalat...

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Re: Roman History

#2

Post by Michael K Gray »

What have the Womans ever done for us, eh?

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Re: Roman History

#3

Post by Michael K Gray »

Seriously now, I contend that the Roman Empire ran out of steam through its relentless reliance on extracting profit.
Discuss.

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Re: Roman History

#4

Post by Darren »

From the Periodic Table thread...
Phil_Giordana_FCD wrote:And I still don't get MKG's statement that the Empire relied on exponential growth. An Emperor's glory might have relied on such, Triumphs being a big deal at the time, but the Empire could have self-sustained very comfortably by the time of Marcus Aurelius' reign. I blame the Germans... (sorry Gurdur)
I'm not sure but, after Hadrian and his big-ol' wall, was triumph still so important to an Emperor? Hadrian set a precedent of consolidation over expansion which, cooincidence or not, denotes the high-water mark of the empire.

Sometimes I wish I lived in England - I've heard in some parts you can't dig a hole without finding something Roman in it. The most I've ever found in my yard with my metal detector is a 50's Australian penny.

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Re: Roman History

#5

Post by Phil_Giordana_FCD »

Darren wrote:From the Periodic Table thread...
Phil_Giordana_FCD wrote:And I still don't get MKG's statement that the Empire relied on exponential growth. An Emperor's glory might have relied on such, Triumphs being a big deal at the time, but the Empire could have self-sustained very comfortably by the time of Marcus Aurelius' reign. I blame the Germans... (sorry Gurdur)
I'm not sure but, after Hadrian and his big-ol' wall, was triumph still so important to an Emperor? Hadrian set a precedent of consolidation over expansion which, cooincidence or not, denotes the high-water mark of the empire.

Sometimes I wish I lived in England - I've heard in some parts you can't dig a hole without finding something Roman in it. The most I've ever found in my yard with my metal detector is a 50's Australian penny.
Well, that's the thing: a few Emperors have tried to stabilize the Empire and lay down firm borders, but there was always the casual asshole to tear it down for profit/glory (Nerva/Commodus).

When I lived in Basingstoke, we used to take a 15 minutes trip to Silchester (Calleva Atrebatum) to enjoy the wall and arena. I wanted to volunteer there for excavations, but it was a bit too pricey.

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Re: Roman History

#6

Post by Corylus »

Phil_Giordana_FCD wrote:Here's a thread for Rome enthusiasts.
Yep, hell raising musicians can indeed be into Roman History, in fact, and I know of one who was written about it in a peer reviewed journal. You might enjoy this paper in Classics Ireland .

Caesar Lives.

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Re: Roman History

#7

Post by Tigzy »

Phil_Giordana_FCD wrote:
Darren wrote:From the Periodic Table thread...
Phil_Giordana_FCD wrote:And I still don't get MKG's statement that the Empire relied on exponential growth. An Emperor's glory might have relied on such, Triumphs being a big deal at the time, but the Empire could have self-sustained very comfortably by the time of Marcus Aurelius' reign. I blame the Germans... (sorry Gurdur)
I'm not sure but, after Hadrian and his big-ol' wall, was triumph still so important to an Emperor? Hadrian set a precedent of consolidation over expansion which, cooincidence or not, denotes the high-water mark of the empire.

Sometimes I wish I lived in England - I've heard in some parts you can't dig a hole without finding something Roman in it. The most I've ever found in my yard with my metal detector is a 50's Australian penny.
Well, that's the thing: a few Emperors have tried to stabilize the Empire and lay down firm borders, but there was always the casual asshole to tear it down for profit/glory (Nerva/Commodus).

When I lived in Basingstoke, we used to take a 15 minutes trip to Silchester (Calleva Atrebatum) to enjoy the wall and arena. I wanted to volunteer there for excavations, but it was a bit too pricey.
Ah - then you might have visited or been aware of Portchester Castle - http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/days ... er-castle/ - whose 3rd century Roman walls are still largely intact. The keep and other fortifications are medieval additions, I believe - it's also where Henry V mustered his army for his invasion of France. Uh, sorry bout that, Phil.

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Re: Roman History

#8

Post by Tigzy »

^Oops - got my kings mixed up there: it wasn't Henry V but Edward III who mustered his troops there for an invasion of France. 'Pologies.

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Re: Roman History

#9

Post by Phil_Giordana_FCD »

Tigzy: You just got me stumped right there. Portchester is now on my travelling list! Thanksies.

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Re: Roman History

#10

Post by Phil_Giordana_FCD »

Corylus wrote:
Phil_Giordana_FCD wrote:Here's a thread for Rome enthusiasts.
Yep, hell raising musicians can indeed be into Roman History, in fact, and I know of one who was written about it in a peer reviewed journal. You might enjoy this paper in Classics Ireland .

Caesar Lives.
I thank thee so muchy!

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Re: Roman History

#11

Post by Pippin »

Darren wrote: Sometimes I wish I lived in England - I've heard in some parts you can't dig a hole without finding something Roman in it. The most I've ever found in my yard with my metal detector is a 50's Australian penny.
I live in England and here's what was discovered on the land owned by a member of my family.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frome_Hoard

The Romans did a lot for them :D

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Re: Roman History

#12

Post by Tigzy »

Phil_Giordana_FCD wrote:Tigzy: You just got me stumped right there. Portchester is now on my travelling list! Thanksies.
It should be said that aside from the castle, there's, uh, not a lot else in Portchester. However, it was the birthplace of Neil Gaiman, and there's an amazing butcher's shop there, The Twells Tradition, which does the most astonishing, award winning sausages. I can personally vouch for how good the wild boar ones are! http://www.twellstradition.co.uk/Sausages.aspx

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Re: Roman History

#13

Post by Phil_Giordana_FCD »

This might be of interest to some of you:

http://www.forumromanum.org/history/morey26.html

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Re: Roman History

#14

Post by Phil_Giordana_FCD »

Tigzy wrote:
Phil_Giordana_FCD wrote:Tigzy: You just got me stumped right there. Portchester is now on my travelling list! Thanksies.
It should be said that aside from the castle, there's, uh, not a lot else in Portchester. However, it was the birthplace of Neil Gaiman, and there's an amazing butcher's shop there, The Twells Tradition, which does the most astonishing, award winning sausages. I can personally vouch for how good the wild boar ones are! http://www.twellstradition.co.uk/Sausages.aspx
Dude(tte?), I live in a country of splenderous sausage, work a lot in Italy (again, splenderous), and spend a few weeks a year in Poland (did I say splenderous? Oh, I did). Bring it on, UK sausages!

Didn't know about Gaiman, interesting. But I want to see the castle and its walls.

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Re: Roman History

#15

Post by Tigzy »

Phil_Giordana_FCD wrote:
Tigzy wrote:
Phil_Giordana_FCD wrote:Tigzy: You just got me stumped right there. Portchester is now on my travelling list! Thanksies.
It should be said that aside from the castle, there's, uh, not a lot else in Portchester. However, it was the birthplace of Neil Gaiman, and there's an amazing butcher's shop there, The Twells Tradition, which does the most astonishing, award winning sausages. I can personally vouch for how good the wild boar ones are! http://www.twellstradition.co.uk/Sausages.aspx
Dude(tte?), I live in a country of splenderous sausage, work a lot in Italy (again, splenderous), and spend a few weeks a year in Poland (did I say splenderous? Oh, I did). Bring it on, UK sausages!

Didn't know about Gaiman, interesting. But I want to see the castle and its walls.
Cheers for the linky above. As for Portchester castle - the outer walls remain amongst the best preserved Roman miltary structures in northern Europe. Given that the castle was in use for such a long time, I guess it was a matter of necessity that the walls were maintained.

I cannot now look at a wild boar without thinking of how good they taste. In sausages.

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Re: Roman History

#16

Post by TedDahlberg »

Tigzy wrote: It should be said that aside from the castle, there's, uh, not a lot else in Portchester. However, it was the birthplace of Neil Gaiman[/url]
Who, of course, put forth the idea (in the story August in Sandman, Fables & Reflections) that Rome's downfall was due to the cessation of expansion, as decreed by Augustus. For anyone who hasn't read it, it's a great story.

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Re: Roman History

#17

Post by Michael K Gray »

TedDahlberg wrote:
Tigzy wrote: It should be said that aside from the castle, there's, uh, not a lot else in Portchester. However, it was the birthplace of Neil Gaiman[/url]
Who, of course, put forth the idea (in the story August in Sandman, Fables & Reflections) that Rome's downfall was due to the cessation of expansion, as decreed by Augustus. For anyone who hasn't read it, it's a great story.
Which comports exactly with my initial thesis.

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Re: Roman History

#18

Post by TedDahlberg »

Michael K Gray wrote:
TedDahlberg wrote:
Tigzy wrote: It should be said that aside from the castle, there's, uh, not a lot else in Portchester. However, it was the birthplace of Neil Gaiman[/url]
Who, of course, put forth the idea (in the story August in Sandman, Fables & Reflections) that Rome's downfall was due to the cessation of expansion, as decreed by Augustus. For anyone who hasn't read it, it's a great story.
Which comports exactly with my initial thesis.
Though possibly not guided by prophecy, as in the story, and not motivated by being raped by a certain Julius.

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Re: Roman History

#19

Post by Phil_Giordana_FCD »

I may have a logic crashdown on this subject, but how does the end of expension of a stable empire with definite borders, if you will, drive the downfall of said empire (or republic)? This is something I have a problem in grasping.

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Re: Roman History

#20

Post by TedDahlberg »

Phil_Giordana_FCD wrote:I may have a logic crashdown on this subject, but how does the end of expension of a stable empire with definite borders, if you will, drive the downfall of said empire (or republic)? This is something I have a problem in grasping.
Lack of resources. Take, for instance, rewarding your veteran soldiers. Often done by granting them land in territories they helped conquer. Not a bad deal for those in charge either, placing loyal citizens in potentially not entirely friendly regions. No more conquest? Now you have legions you must pay through other means.

It's a bit like getting new credit cards to pay off the debt on your old credit cards… it only works as long as you can keep getting new cards.

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Re: Roman History

#21

Post by Phil_Giordana_FCD »

The need for land to offer to soldiers I can understand. But shouldn't there be an equilibrium in this type of governing? Old soldiers die (true story), and not all of them have children. Recycle the land? What about spoils instead of land? Or social "upgrade"? Be an Equestrian if you fight for me...

Actually, I love the way this talk is going.

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Re: Roman History

#22

Post by TedDahlberg »

Phil_Giordana_FCD wrote:The need for land to offer to soldiers I can understand. But shouldn't there be an equilibrium in this type of governing? Old soldiers die (true story), and not all of them have children. Recycle the land? What about spoils instead of land? Or social "upgrade"? Be an Equestrian if you fight for me...

Actually, I love the way this talk is going.
It's fascinating stuff :D But bear in mind my days of studying ancient history are a decade away, and contained more Greek art than anything else. So, caveat, I'm probably talking crap. Anyway…

Ideally things should reach an equilibrium, but it seems unlikely they did. Rome had a lot of soldiers. Certainly more than could be supplied by older landowners dying off without inheritors. And even if there was any significant number of those, I'm not sure even Rome had the level of bureaucracy to deal with it in an effective way. Spoils runs into the same problem as land, you need wars of expansion to get it. I believe social advancement did take place, but being made an equestrian made you nobility and you really can't have too many of those running around. If nothing else they get ideas about acquiring more power, which is about as destabilizing as legions of restless soldiers. Besides which, I assume an advancement in rank would need to be accompanied with grants of land and money…

Keep in mind I'm not saying this is the one thing which toppled the empire. It's one potential destabilizing factor.

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Re: Roman History

#23

Post by Phil_Giordana_FCD »

Ted: Then this would mean the Empire's main objective was "more legions". It might very well have been, but I'm not so sure about that. I will make some research to try and find out if any Emperor ever tried to limit the size and power of the army. Those ancient dynamics are really quite complex (and mesmerizing).

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Re: Roman History

#24

Post by TedDahlberg »

Phil_Giordana_FCD wrote:Ted: Then this would mean the Empire's main objective was "more legions". It might very well have been, but I'm not so sure about that. I will make some research to try and find out if any Emperor ever tried to limit the size and power of the army. Those ancient dynamics are really quite complex (and mesmerizing).
I'd say that "more legions" was a side effect of maintaining power. And maintaining the legions at some arbitrary stable number might still have been cost more resources than was eventually available. I'll have to do some reading, too. As I say, this is mostly speculation from my side.

There is also the fact that the military gradually grew in power, to the point of essentially appointing emperors. I'd say a lot of Rome's problems stemmed from having no official line of succession. Technically the emperors were "first citizen" and theoretically equal to any other member of the senate, merely invested with extraordinary powers by vote of the senate. The same senate which was, of course, controlled by the emperor.

I find it helps to think about Roman history in the terms of Mafia families ;)

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Re: Roman History

#25

Post by Michael K Gray »

You all seem to be converging on assenting to my original point.
This makes me feel smug.

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Re: Roman History

#26

Post by TedDahlberg »

Michael K Gray wrote:You all seem to be converging on assenting to my original point.
This makes me feel smug.
Although I'm about to go home and start reading a book which appears to contradict it; Peter Heather, The Fall of the Roman Empire: A New History of Rome and the Barbarians, ISBN 0195325419. So mayhap best not to let your smugness get too comfortable. I may yet be converted to heresy!

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Re: Roman History

#27

Post by Michael K Gray »

TedDahlberg wrote:
Michael K Gray wrote:You all seem to be converging on assenting to my original point.
This makes me feel smug.
Although I'm about to go home and start reading a book which appears to contradict it; Peter Heather, The Fall of the Roman Empire: A New History of Rome and the Barbarians, ISBN 0195325419. So mayhap best not to let your smugness get too comfortable. I may yet be converted to heresy!
Should you reverse my opinion, I shall feel "gums".

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Re: Roman History

#28

Post by Phil_Giordana_FCD »

If any of you is interested (or hasn't read it yet), here is the full "Gallic Wars" by Julius Caesar:

http://classics.mit.edu/Caesar/gallic.html

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Re: Roman History

#29

Post by AKAHorace »

Terry Jones says that the Barbarians were underated by classical scholars. No idea how true this is see:




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Re: Roman History

#30

Post by Phil_Giordana_FCD »

AKAHorace wrote:Terry Jones says that the Barbarians were underated by classical scholars. No idea how true this is see:



Thanks for the links!

(Why is it that most documentaries I enjoy are made by former Monty Pythons?)

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Re: Roman History

#31

Post by Inaction Man »

Darren wrote:From the Periodic Table thread...
Phil_Giordana_FCD wrote:And I still don't get MKG's statement that the Empire relied on exponential growth. An Emperor's glory might have relied on such, Triumphs being a big deal at the time, but the Empire could have self-sustained very comfortably by the time of Marcus Aurelius' reign. I blame the Germans... (sorry Gurdur)
I'm not sure but, after Hadrian and his big-ol' wall, was triumph still so important to an Emperor? Hadrian set a precedent of consolidation over expansion which, cooincidence or not, denotes the high-water mark of the empire.

Sometimes I wish I lived in England - I've heard in some parts you can't dig a hole without finding something Roman in it. The most I've ever found in my yard with my metal detector is a 50's Australian penny.
Dig deeper. ;)

Mind you, I dig in my back yard all I get is dog's buried bones and zillions of oyster shells left by the local Aborigines. It's kinda neat to live on an ancient midden, but it gets boring after a while.

As for never ending expansion and Rome. Nah, that pretty much stopped with Augustus (as far as Europe anyway) Later expansion was as much to curb aggression as to expand the Empire. They needed to expand to gain more booty maybe, but really, their economic model was stuffed and so the crisis of the third century (plus plague and invasion).

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