The Trump Dump!

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Expand view Topic review: The Trump Dump!

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3678

by MarcusAu » Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:09 am

Brive1987 wrote: There are many things I haven’t been exonerated of.
Not officially.
Brive1987 wrote: ...the Republicans have been energised on behalf of their unfairly victimised President
Even if true - it makes no different to me either way if someone is classified as a 'victim' (based on trial by media at least). In other circumstances such a status would be dismissed out of hand.

Worst comes to worst, he could take a leaf out of the Nunes guys book and sue.

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3677

by Brive1987 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:47 am

Between crazy-ivan and Kavanaugh-kapers, the Democrat/Lib complex has built itself a shit brand.

The problem with having cast Trump as the blackest of black crooks is that you look foolish if you back down and insane + vindictive if you double down. Meanwhile the Republicans have been energised on behalf of their unfairly victimised President.

Own goal.

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3676

by Brive1987 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:39 am

MarcusAu wrote:
Brive1987 wrote: Let’s go presumption of innocence eh?
As long as no one says it exonerates him.
There are many things I haven’t been exonerated of.

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3675

by MarcusAu » Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:33 am

Clarence wrote: Mostly staying away from this site...
Well, it's nice to have you back...even if it's just temporary...

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3674

by MarcusAu » Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:32 am

Brive1987 wrote: Let’s go presumption of innocence eh?
As long as no one says it exonerates him.

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3673

by Brive1987 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:49 pm

“No evidence of collusion”

Can’t say “yes” or “no” on obstruction. Let’s go presumption of innocence eh?

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3672

by Keating » Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:07 pm

Probably appropriate that Trump has his own firm of birtherism.

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3671

by Clarence » Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:00 pm

MarcusAu wrote:
Clarence wrote: I'm enjoying...
Where the fuck have you been?
Mostly staying away from this site as I had no interest in lots of the particular SJW dramas being covered, and also I was sick of the anti-Trump bullying some here were conducting. I did come back about maybe 8 times total just to read (but the main thread, not here) and , while I had a few laughs, felt no need to respond to anything. Only thing I promised myself was that if the Mueller Witch Hunt ever ended I'd be back to see and respond to the reactions, assuming there were any. Slymepit has seemed rather quiet the past year or so, prolly because FTB and the various personalities involved in that have mostly faded to obscurity and irrelevance, and even the return of a few oldsters didn't bring the excitement anymore. I've been at Kotaku in Action and other places like the Farms (Kiwi) to get my anti-sjw fix...

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3670

by MarcusAu » Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:55 pm

Clarence wrote: I'm enjoying...
Where the fuck have you been?

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3669

by Clarence » Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:51 pm

And of course some here are crowing about the SDNY and such.
A. Sources say that not only will there not be any NEW indictments, but that none of the currently SEALED indictments have anything to do with this investigation.
B. SDNY is now under Trump's Justice Department.
They are just as capable of 'covering up' for Trump as they were for Clinton. Difference is, unlike the Clinton laptop, there will be actual press coverage...but since many if not most will no longer believe the 'mainstream press' ...suck it, Trump haters. You did this to yourself. You refused to hold Obama accountable for anything, and think investigations of Hillary where she is never placed under Oath and her friends are conducting them are not worthy of the side-eye....

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3668

by Clarence » Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:45 pm

Ahh, here's the link to the chapter of the book I've been taking quotes from:

https://taibbi.substack.com/p/russiagat ... -a-million

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3667

by Clarence » Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:42 pm

Ahh, more later. There's so many more good things to quote just from that: about all the press's lies, confident predictions of impeachment and handcuffs for the Don and the Junior, and etc.
So many tweets and news segments to link to. Having aged about as well as a crack whore who decided she wanted to diversify her drug portfolio to include crystal meth.
So many tears and so much Trump Derangement. And so few willing to even admit being wrong.

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3666

by Clarence » Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:33 pm

Some quotes, since this is long (chapter of a book) and I'm sure TLDR:

About the New York Times:
"The paper was signaling it understood there would now be questions about whether or not news outlets like itself made galactic errors by betting heavily on a new, politicized approach, trying to be true to “history’s judgment” on top of the hard-enough job of just being true. Worse, in a brutal irony everyone should have seen coming, the press has now handed Trump the mother of campaign issues heading into 2020.

Nothing Trump is accused of from now on by the press will be believed by huge chunks of the population, a group that (perhaps thanks to this story) is now larger than his original base. As Baker notes, a full 50.3% of respondents in a poll conducted this month said they agree with Trump the Mueller probe is a “witch hunt.”

This is a predictable result.

About the rest of this thread: "There will be people protesting: the Mueller report doesn’t prove anything! What about the 37 indictments? The convictions? The Trump tower revelations? The lies! The meeting with Don, Jr.? The financial matters! There’s an ongoing grand jury investigation, and possible sealed indictments, and the House will still investigate, and…

Stop. Just stop. Any journalist who goes there is making it worse.

For years, every pundit and Democratic pol in Washington hyped every new Russia headline like the Watergate break-in. Now, even Nancy Pelosi has said impeachment is out, unless something “so compelling and overwhelming and bipartisan” against Trump is uncovered it would be worth their political trouble to prosecute.

The biggest thing this affair has uncovered so far is Donald Trump paying off a porn star. That’s a hell of a long way from what this business was supposedly about at the beginning, and shame on any reporter who tries to pretend this isn’t so."
:lol: :lol: :lol:


"There was never real gray area here. Either Trump is a compromised foreign agent, or he isn’t. If he isn’t, news outlets once again swallowed a massive disinformation campaign, only this error is many orders of magnitude more stupid than any in the recent past, WMD included. Honest reporters like ABC’s Terry Moran understand: Mueller coming back empty-handed on collusion means a “reckoning for the media.”

Well, considering the Washington Post hasn't done anything but suck our almost totally unregulated and unoversighted intelligence agencies balls since 9-11, it's not a surprise. So much so that The Washington Post is sometimes called "The Cia's House Organ". The Post has been the conduit for Comey's leaks. Why allegedly intelligent people here seem to trust them without limit EVEN when it comes to Cloak & Dagger stuff is beyond me.

I've yet to see, for instance, a single bit of proof that the Democrats server was really hacked by the Russians. Remember that CROWDSTRIKE is the only entity (not a US government agency and certainly not anyone in the New Administrations FBI) that had access to them and that CROWDSTRIKE is basically a political 'forensics' op. That is, they are not above faking things for their political clients, in this case the Democratic party.

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3665

by Clarence » Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:19 pm

I'm enjoying the tears and the (predicted) doubling-down of some on this board.
Here's a professional ethicist on the Mueller Report and the Trump Deranged:
https://ethicsalarms.com/2019/03/23/eth ... pointment/

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3664

by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:06 pm

This is what the Trump administration and its enablers in Congress and media are already calling exoneration.But it offers no reassurance to Americans who cherish the independence and integrity of their political process.

The question unanswered by the attorney general’s summary of Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s report is: Why? Russian President Vladimir Putin took an extreme risk by interfering in the 2016 election as he did. Had Hillary Clinton won the presidency, the most likely outcome, Russia would have been exposed to fierce retaliation by a powerful adversary. The prize of a Trump presidency must have glittered alluringly indeed to Putin and his associates. Why?

Did they admire Donald Trump’s anti-NATO, anti-EU, anti-ally, pro-Assad, pro-Putin ideology?

Were they attracted by his contempt for the rule of law and dislike of democracy?

Did they hold compromising information about him, financial or otherwise?

Were there business dealings in the past, present, or future?

Or were they simply attracted by Trump’s general ignorance and incompetence, seeing him as a kind of wrecking ball to be smashed into the U.S. government and U.S. foreign policy?
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... ce=twitter

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3663

by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:59 pm



That's a good question. :think:

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3662

by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:30 pm

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3661

by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:28 pm

It was said "wait until the report comes out," not "wait until the hand-picked AG that previously criticized the investigation releases a letter about his interpretations of the report."

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3660

by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:25 pm

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3659

by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:22 pm

Brive1987 wrote:
Old_ones wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:35 pm
Brive1987 wrote: [IMG.]http://i.imgur.com/ZS6tSiN.jpg[/IMG]

“No further indictments”

Sounds like Trump and his gang are on the mat.
(snip)
Submitted without comment.
Benjamin Wittes wrote: The president should wait before popping the champagne corks over this and tweeting in triumph. Yes, in the best-case scenario for the president, Mueller is not proceeding further because he lacks the evidence to do so. But even this possibility contains multitudes: everything from what the president calls “NO COLLUSION!” to evidence that falls just short of adequate to prove criminal conduct to a reasonable jury beyond a reasonable doubt—evidence that could still prove devastating if the conduct at issue becomes public.

There are other possibilities as well. It’s possible, for example, that Mueller is not proceeding against certain defendants other than the president because he has referred them to other prosecutorial offices; some of these referrals are already public, and it’s reasonable to expect there may be other referrals too. In this iteration, what is ending here is not the investigation, merely the portion of the investigation Mueller chose to retain for himself. It’s possible also that Mueller is finished because he has determined that while the evidence would support a prosecution of the president, he is bound by the Justice Department’s long-standing position that the president is not amenable to criminal process. On the obstruction front, he may well have concluded that, while the president acted to obstruct the investigation, he cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the president’s obstructive acts were not exercises of Trump’s Article II powers. It’s also possible that Mueller has strong prudential reasons for not proceeding with otherwise viable cases.

...

Vindication for the president will take place only when we learn that the facts contained in the report exculpate him. The end of the Mueller probe could well prove tomorrow to be merely the creation of a factual record for the next act of this drama.
(emphasis mine)

https://www.lawfareblog.com/very-quick- ... estigation
Resubmitted without comment. Change of emphasis mine.

Ok I will do comment. For a bunch of dudes who I’ve cautioned to keep the squeals down till there is resolution, well it seems mighty odd that you are all “let’s wait and see” now.
That's because this isn't the resolution, you and other Trumpettes just want it to be one. Selective density.

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3658

by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:19 pm



Of course, that's why Barr was chosen. And again, this is his summary. I'm sure he'll release the full report. :whistle:

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3657

by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:09 pm

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3656

by Brive1987 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:56 am

I guess the finger is poised to flip the switch from Obama’s economy to Trump’s. :lol:

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3655

by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:47 am

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3654

by free thoughtpolice » Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:28 am

Trump may have broken the law, but because he is a sitting president and/or some crimes may be not prosecutable because of the statute of limitations. Part of the special prosecutors rules are that if there are no indictments the details of the investigation should be kept secret to protect the target from unnecessary embarrassment.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... ss/585577/
The fact that this prosecutor, unlike other prosecutors, cannot indict if he finds an indictable offense may seem to put pressure on the attorney general to share the report with Congress, which can remedy presidential misconduct through impeachment.
But this unusual situation does not somehow work a repeal of well-established traditions of confidentiality. If the House wants to consider impeachment, it needs to do its own work. It would be odd in the extreme to ask, in effect, the executive branch to become a tool of the legislative branch in a death-struggle with the only individual identified in the Constitution as the possessor and wielder of executive power: the president. That was the old way, under the old statute. Congress did away with that approach, and wisely so.
Ironically, congress "did away with that approach, and wisely so" because of the partisan excesses of the author of this piece, Ken Starr.
Look for a battle to keep the Mueller report completely secret for as long as possible. It's conceivable that if Trump dies in office he may well have been found to commit crimes that the public will never hear about.

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3653

by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:13 am

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3652

by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:10 am

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3651

by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:09 am

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3650

by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:07 am

I note none of the Republicans close to Trump are calling for the release of the report. Odd, since they're also claiming it exonerates him.

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3649

by Brive1987 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:27 am

Kirbmarc wrote:
The extreme version of the "Russian collusion" narrative, the one that talked about Trump being "blackmailed" by the Russians (over the "pee tape" or other things) or a "puppet" to Russian interests, always seemed very unlikely to me, and those who obsessively pushed it (like Louise Mensch) didn't seem very rational.
Mensch has a ticket at the back of a long democratic mob of pitchfork carrying pugilists.

Leave the poor dame alone.

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3648

by Kirbmarc » Sat Mar 23, 2019 11:57 pm

I find it a bit funny that in the US it's not illegal to be a lobbyist for a foreign power, as long as you don't lie about it to a prosecutor. You can get away with "persuading" congressmen or senators or even federal agencies to change their rules to favor a foreign power, even one as awful as Saudi Arabia, as long as you openly declare what you're doing. Flynn got in trouble not for serving the interests of Turkey in the US, but for lying about it to the FBI.

There are lots of loopholes to get away with what is very, very close to bribery but isn't quite bribery enough to be illegal.

So I wouldn't be surprised if Trump and his associates engaged in shady but not strictly illegal activities (or activities which were not likely to produce evidence of illegal action) activity when it came to their Russian dealings.

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3647

by Kirbmarc » Sat Mar 23, 2019 11:45 pm

I think that it's perfectly possible that Trump and associates might have done shady, but not strictly illegal things when it comes to their deals with Russia.

The extreme version of the "Russian collusion" narrative, the one that talked about Trump being "blackmailed" by the Russians (over the "pee tape" or other things) or a "puppet" to Russian interests, always seemed very unlikely to me, and those who obsessively pushed it (like Louise Mensch) didn't seem very rational.

There was still reasonable room to investigate whether there were some illegal financial/political dealings between the Trump campaign and the Russians over some quid pro quo in terms of dirt on Clinton over favorable lifting of sanctions.

It's possible that Trump&co might have found a way to have a shady but not illegal deal: after all lobbies and special interests have lots of leeway in the US, and "pay for play" is a feature for American politics. Many Trump associates have toed the line between corruption and lobbying, because indeed that's pretty thin and confused line, since American laws allow for plenty of morally dubious behavior when it comes to lobbying and political fundraising. People like Manafort or Stone have been caught doing illegal things, others might have been a little more careful or lucky.

Whether Trump should be impeached or not for shady but not strictly illegal deals depends on your interpretation of "high crimes and misdemeanors". I think at this point Trump is quite unlikely to get impeached anyway, since the Republicans control the Senate and they have every reason not to remove Trump unless there's a clear "smoking gun", which at this point is unlikely to come up.

Still, it'd be interesting to read Mueller's report, to find out exactly what it says. There might be some pretty damning evidence of some behavior which is not strictly speaking illegal, or illegal but not worth risking precedent against indicting sitting Presidents, but is still so egregious that it might matter politically. It's a bit of a long shot, though, considering just how much Trump has gotten away with.

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3646

by Brive1987 » Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:43 pm

538 had a very subdued Mueller emergency podcast.

Pretty minor fry in quality and quantity compared to other investigations. 7 court cases (once you strip out the Russkies who won’t face justice). None of them collusion based. No evidence Mueller was stopped from bringing any indictments. No other obvious political interference. No additional indictments likely.

No fire. No fury.

I’m sure their dreams will be realised with the summary release though.

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3645

by free thoughtpolice » Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:48 am

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3644

by Old_ones » Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:11 pm

Brive1987 wrote: Ok I will do comment. For a bunch of dudes who I’ve cautioned to keep the squeals down till there is resolution, well it seems mighty odd that you are all “let’s wait and see” now.
It's almost as if there were a report concluding a 2 year investigation, the content of which is still unknown to the public. All those red words you highlighted make exactly that point, genius. I'm not sure why you would assume Trump is exonerated just because Mueller didn't try to breach DOJ policy to indict a sitting president.

My mind hasn't changed about the probable significance of the Trump tower meeting, or the fact that Trump was privately trying to work out a deal for a tower in Moscow, while he lied to the public about having no business in Russia during the 2016 election. I'm still convinced he is a criminal based on publicly available information. What I don't know is what Mueller's analysis will be, what new evidence will be in the report, or what recommendations he might make.

Maybe Mueller will make no recommendations and say that the evidence linking Trump to Russia is too tenuous to inform any solid conclusion. If that's the case, congratulations to Mr. Trump, and I hope he has a clear conscience with respect to his finances and business dealings, because those are under investigation as well (by SDNY). And he's already been implicated in a campaign finance felony in that investigation.

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3643

by Brive1987 » Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:10 pm

Old_ones wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:35 pm
Brive1987 wrote: [IMG.]http://i.imgur.com/ZS6tSiN.jpg[/IMG]

“No further indictments”

Sounds like Trump and his gang are on the mat.
(snip)
Submitted without comment.
Benjamin Wittes wrote: The president should wait before popping the champagne corks over this and tweeting in triumph. Yes, in the best-case scenario for the president, Mueller is not proceeding further because he lacks the evidence to do so. But even this possibility contains multitudes: everything from what the president calls “NO COLLUSION!” to evidence that falls just short of adequate to prove criminal conduct to a reasonable jury beyond a reasonable doubt—evidence that could still prove devastating if the conduct at issue becomes public.

There are other possibilities as well. It’s possible, for example, that Mueller is not proceeding against certain defendants other than the president because he has referred them to other prosecutorial offices; some of these referrals are already public, and it’s reasonable to expect there may be other referrals too. In this iteration, what is ending here is not the investigation, merely the portion of the investigation Mueller chose to retain for himself. It’s possible also that Mueller is finished because he has determined that while the evidence would support a prosecution of the president, he is bound by the Justice Department’s long-standing position that the president is not amenable to criminal process. On the obstruction front, he may well have concluded that, while the president acted to obstruct the investigation, he cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the president’s obstructive acts were not exercises of Trump’s Article II powers. It’s also possible that Mueller has strong prudential reasons for not proceeding with otherwise viable cases.

...

Vindication for the president will take place only when we learn that the facts contained in the report exculpate him. The end of the Mueller probe could well prove tomorrow to be merely the creation of a factual record for the next act of this drama.
(emphasis mine)

https://www.lawfareblog.com/very-quick- ... estigation
Resubmitted without comment. Change of emphasis mine.

Ok I will do comment. For a bunch of dudes who I’ve cautioned to keep the squeals down till there is resolution, well it seems mighty odd that you are all “let’s wait and see” now.

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3642

by Old_ones » Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:35 pm

Brive1987 wrote: [IMG.]http://i.imgur.com/ZS6tSiN.jpg[/IMG]

“No further indictments”

Sounds like Trump and his gang are on the mat.
(snip)
Submitted without comment.
Benjamin Wittes wrote: The president should wait before popping the champagne corks over this and tweeting in triumph. Yes, in the best-case scenario for the president, Mueller is not proceeding further because he lacks the evidence to do so. But even this possibility contains multitudes: everything from what the president calls “NO COLLUSION!” to evidence that falls just short of adequate to prove criminal conduct to a reasonable jury beyond a reasonable doubt—evidence that could still prove devastating if the conduct at issue becomes public.

There are other possibilities as well. It’s possible, for example, that Mueller is not proceeding against certain defendants other than the president because he has referred them to other prosecutorial offices; some of these referrals are already public, and it’s reasonable to expect there may be other referrals too. In this iteration, what is ending here is not the investigation, merely the portion of the investigation Mueller chose to retain for himself. It’s possible also that Mueller is finished because he has determined that while the evidence would support a prosecution of the president, he is bound by the Justice Department’s long-standing position that the president is not amenable to criminal process. On the obstruction front, he may well have concluded that, while the president acted to obstruct the investigation, he cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the president’s obstructive acts were not exercises of Trump’s Article II powers. It’s also possible that Mueller has strong prudential reasons for not proceeding with otherwise viable cases.

...

Vindication for the president will take place only when we learn that the facts contained in the report exculpate him. The end of the Mueller probe could well prove tomorrow to be merely the creation of a factual record for the next act of this drama.
(emphasis mine)

https://www.lawfareblog.com/very-quick- ... estigation

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3641

by Brive1987 » Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:50 pm



“We wish you a mueller Christmas” 🎄

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3640

by Sunder » Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:41 pm

CaptainFluffyBunny wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:29 am
Honestly this is beyond absurd. Trump's entire staff at this point is nothing but people who will do whatever he says. There should not be any internal conflicts unless either the boss is so stupid and scatterbrained that he doesn't even pay attention to what's going on, or he's actively creating chaos for shits and giggles.

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3639

by free thoughtpolice » Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:14 pm

Brive1987 wrote:
CaptainFluffyBunny wrote: This has been covered before, Brive. There is considerable opposition to indicting a sitting president. That will be up to confess after viewing the report.
I know - that’s why I said “gang”. What I posted doesn’t seem to be a compelling indication of success.
As Manafort apparently won't be facing a conspiring with Russians charge likely no one else will at least in the "collusion" sense. We will see, but also the scope of Mueller's investigation was limited, so other investigations may uncover other crimes.
My previous post quotes an article that talks about other investigation of Trump and the gang. We will see.

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3638

by Brive1987 » Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:37 pm

CaptainFluffyBunny wrote: This has been covered before, Brive. There is considerable opposition to indicting a sitting president. That will be up to confess after viewing the report.
I know - that’s why I said “gang”. What I posted doesn’t seem to be a compelling indication of success.

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3637

by CaptainFluffyBunny » Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:55 pm

Congress.

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3636

by free thoughtpolice » Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:54 pm

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3635

by CaptainFluffyBunny » Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:54 pm

This has been covered before, Brive. There is considerable opposition to indicting a sitting president. That will be up to confess after viewing the report.

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3634

by Brive1987 » Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:33 pm

http://i.imgur.com/ZS6tSiN.jpg

“No further indictments”

Sounds like Trump and his gang are on the mat.

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3633

by CaptainFluffyBunny » Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:30 pm



So it begins... :popcorn:

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3632

by CaptainFluffyBunny » Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:16 pm

Progressivism, left unchecked would indeed ruin the West. So would conservatism. Indeed, I recall not too long ago having to fight our local school board as they made a mockery of my school district by trying to put Intelligent Design in the biology curriculum. We have local preachers trying to get coaches fired for being gay. Full-bore Christianity primarily differs from Islam in the details, not the oppresions it engenders. It's just mostly been discarded as inconvenient, but there's still Christians perfectly willing to have the death penalty for sodomy, and would happily enforce it if they came to power.

I'm not against all conservative values. Indeed, I believe that conservatives play an important role in American politics. Intelligent conservatives, anyway. They put a check on the worst elements of the left. America was designed around checks and balances, competition and making wholesale change very difficult. I see the value in competing ideas.

But, let's look at Trump. You acknowledge he's crooked. He's certainly broken the law, and it's not at all beyond the pale to think he's cooperated with the Russians. He has become the Republican party. If they don't agree with him, they now along because they're afraid of him. But Trump is in trouble. You post your calender to show that he's no indicted yet, etc. That's will certainly change. Let's say that he his called to account for his crimes. What then happens to the conservative values you espouse? He has poisoned the Republican party. By cooperation and failure to hold him to account, the whole party is tainted. They will likely get clobbered in the elections, and Democrats will be victorious. Some of the nuttiest ones, like AOC will take that as a mandate. So will a lot of the electorate. Nobody wants to be the party associated with corruption and other crimes. There will be a few, QAnon and others, that will never believe Trump was guilty, whine about "Deep State" and may even resort to violence. In the end, it's just the mirror image of the divisiveness and identify politics as the regressive left.

In the end, Trump poisons everything (also a good book by Rick Wilson, an old-school conservative.) Already Trump has made the regressive left stronger, not weaker. If he's taken down, and it's certainly quite possible) everything you stand for will be weakened or cast into disrepute. This is what a lot of intelligent conservatives are arguing; Rick Wilson, David French, etc.

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3631

by free thoughtpolice » Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:06 pm

The Mueller investigation is finished.
https://thehill.com/policy/national-sec ... estigation

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3630

by free thoughtpolice » Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:52 pm

Brive wrote:
Do you have semi automatic weapons? Or only bolt Action?
I've only owned bolt action rifles and pump shotguns. The law here is 3 shell capacity in shotguns and long ago during times I was camping in grizzly country I (maybe depending if overzealous mounties are reading this) I may have removed the plug to allow extra shells as one usually set up buckshot/slug /buckshot/slug/ slug as the coastal brown bears near here routinely exceed 1000 lb. and are not easy to kill.
Semi-automatic shotguns are definitely useful as bear guns as a typical scenario is an animal moving quickly from a short range and even a well placed heart shot can allow time for the bear to kill you, about 10 seconds, before it dies. It gives you extra time to connect with collar bone, neck, or spine shots which will halt the charge. Fortunately never had to test the system out. :)

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3629

by CaptainFluffyBunny » Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:50 pm

Brive1987 wrote: Try that again ...

“Firstly, borked the tweet but I was pointing out that Saint Bernie wants your semi autos ....”
Yep. But I think the odds of him accomplishing this is very low. I think the odds, in the highly-unlikely scenario that he secures the nomination, that he would get universal health care is reasonably good. There is always a good deal of posturing in campaigns. I tend towards a pragmatic approach.

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3628

by Brive1987 » Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:05 pm

Try that again ...

“Firstly, borked the tweet but I was pointing out that Saint Bernie wants your semi autos ....”

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3627

by CaptainFluffyBunny » Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:04 pm

Brive1987 wrote:
free thoughtpolice wrote:
Brive1987 wrote: Oops

https..://twitter.com/katiepavlich/status/1108755226050347009?s=21
What's the big deal? That is pretty much the law in Canada. Exceptions are made for certain collectible firearms but hunters and sport shooters don't need high capacity magazines and it at least makes it a bit more difficult for a mass murderer to rack up as large number of victims as the Brievik and Tarrant types have managed.
Many of the magazines can be altered to hold fewer rounds so confiscation or buyback isn't necessary.
Do you have semi automatic weapons? Or only bolt Action?
Quite a bit of each. Most have been moved to Oregon, as we in Washington State have a new law about securing firearms. Many of mine were in the safe, but others were secured with a trigger-lock, cable or magazine stored separately. The new law is a bit ambiguous, so rather than risk it, I've had to store them in my dad's larger safe. I do most of my shooting down there anyway, as I'm adverse to paying a small fortune to shoot next to people with little knowledge or regard for firearm safety and all the intelligence of dirt. In the process, my eldest son managed to snap off the folding iron sight on my Ruger 10-22 and break the scope on my deer rifle. Sigh.

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3626

by Brive1987 » Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:02 pm

CaptainFluffyBunny wrote:
Brive1987 wrote: You complain of anecdote context free tweets while in the Trump Dump? :lol: :lol:

Personally I see my efforts as footnotes in a debate the liberals can’t win. The RL implications of acquiescence to progressive agendas.

Speaking of which, CFB will have to surrender his armoury when his mates seize powder out of the ashes of the Electoral College.

I'm sure that sounded better in your head. While I am a gun owner, perhaps even enthusiast, I am not a gun nut. They are tools, nothing more. I am perfectly willing to have a sensible look at the Second Amendment, as long as it is based on science and rational arguments. There really isn't a need for bump-stocks, nor high-capacity magazines. Of course, with sufficient knowledge a lot of semi-automatic weapons can be modified, and you can 3D print magazines or even firearms now. Thus rendering a lit of legislation null, as that horse has left the barn, and probably the county. There's a lot of weapons already out there, and there's not really enough support to catalyze a serious move on the Second. Most of it is fearmongering to sell weapons, or political pandering to shore up support among the liberal base. I'm not losing any sleep over it, and any ban will be on new weapon sales, as existing firearms would cause large-scale revolt.

Right now I carry, because I have to carry. It may surprise, or please you to know that there's a few nasty types that wish to do this poor ol' fluffy bunny harm. What a world, and me such a nice guy, eh?

But I digress. Your issue, as I see it, is that you engage in black-and-white and apocalyptic thinking. In reality, the situation is far more complex. Yes, absolutely liberalism run amok is a terribly destructive force. So is conservatism. It is in the balance of these forces, the stable center, wherein sense is made.

Your tendentious tendency to simply lump the entire left together, while sorting the right with a fine-tooth comb for the saner bits simply shows bias. It isn't footnotes to an argument liberals can't win. You nutpick, or choose the most outrageous examples of the left as indicative of the whole, and handwave away any similar tendency on the right. It's disingenuous, not productive and makes suspect your entire premise. That's just tribalism. You acknowledge certain liberal gains already made, like the destigmatization of homosexuality, without acknowledging that conservatives vehemently opposed it at first. It's simply not an honest look at the situation, it is a demonization of a side, no nuance or subtlety at all.
Firstly, borked the tweet but I was pointing out that Saint Bernie want some your non bolt action semi autos. Because he is an ideolog. Somehow that segued for you into an anti NRA pitch. Weird.

Secondly, my point was that progressivism is running the agenda in the West (outside America) via massively disproportionate power and influence. This is demonstrable across multiple outcome areas using a number of indicators. And it isn’t making us strong.

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3625

by Brive1987 » Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:53 pm

free thoughtpolice wrote:
Brive1987 wrote: Oops

https..://twitter.com/katiepavlich/status/1108755226050347009?s=21
What's the big deal? That is pretty much the law in Canada. Exceptions are made for certain collectible firearms but hunters and sport shooters don't need high capacity magazines and it at least makes it a bit more difficult for a mass murderer to rack up as large number of victims as the Brievik and Tarrant types have managed.
Many of the magazines can be altered to hold fewer rounds so confiscation or buyback isn't necessary.
Do you have semi automatic weapons? Or only bolt Action?

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3624

by CaptainFluffyBunny » Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:12 pm

Which, I suppose is a bit hypocritical, as I own several of these weapons and high capacity magazines. There's just no good, easy answer to the gun issue in America. I will state emphatically that the NRA is causing a lot more harm than good. They only exist anymore to drum up gun sales. At one time they were about education and safety, but now that's not even on their radar. I gave up on them decades ago, and I still get their begging for money fliers several times a month. Bastards.

Now that weapons can be made with computerized CNC and 3D printers, the idea that we can contain the beast is nearly quaint. Since a gun is a criminal's primary tool, they'll almost always get a gun. And Britain's overreaction in knife sales and confisticating whisks doesn't seem to have solved stabby-stab, slashy-cut crime in London, etc.

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3623

by CaptainFluffyBunny » Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:00 pm

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3622

by CaptainFluffyBunny » Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:35 am

free thoughtpolice wrote:
Brive1987 wrote: Oops

What's the big deal? That is pretty much the law in Canada. Exceptions are made for certain collectible firearms but hunters and sport shooters don't need high capacity magazines and it at least makes it a bit more difficult for a mass murderer to rack up as large number of victims as the Brievik and Tarrant types have managed.
Many of the magazines can be altered to hold fewer rounds so confiscation or buyback isn't necessary.
Yep. Tragically, the NRA and other unsavory types have the idea that military grade weapons are necessary to ensure freedom drilled into the heads of willing rubes. They are willing, quite literally, to die on that hill. So anybody without a police record over the age of 18 (or 21 in some areas now) can purchase something that makes killing very, very easy.

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3621

by CaptainFluffyBunny » Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:26 am

Brive1987 wrote: You complain of anecdote context free tweets while in the Trump Dump? :lol: :lol:

Personally I see my efforts as footnotes in a debate the liberals can’t win. The RL implications of acquiescence to progressive agendas.

Speaking of which, CFB will have to surrender his armoury when his mates seize powder out of the ashes of the Electoral College.

I'm sure that sounded better in your head. While I am a gun owner, perhaps even enthusiast, I am not a gun nut. They are tools, nothing more. I am perfectly willing to have a sensible look at the Second Amendment, as long as it is based on science and rational arguments. There really isn't a need for bump-stocks, nor high-capacity magazines. Of course, with sufficient knowledge a lot of semi-automatic weapons can be modified, and you can 3D print magazines or even firearms now. Thus rendering a lit of legislation null, as that horse has left the barn, and probably the county. There's a lot of weapons already out there, and there's not really enough support to catalyze a serious move on the Second. Most of it is fearmongering to sell weapons, or political pandering to shore up support among the liberal base. I'm not losing any sleep over it, and any ban will be on new weapon sales, as existing firearms would cause large-scale revolt.

Right now I carry, because I have to carry. It may surprise, or please you to know that there's a few nasty types that wish to do this poor ol' fluffy bunny harm. What a world, and me such a nice guy, eh?

But I digress. Your issue, as I see it, is that you engage in black-and-white and apocalyptic thinking. In reality, the situation is far more complex. Yes, absolutely liberalism run amok is a terribly destructive force. So is conservatism. It is in the balance of these forces, the stable center, wherein sense is made.

Your tendentious tendency to simply lump the entire left together, while sorting the right with a fine-tooth comb for the saner bits simply shows bias. It isn't footnotes to an argument liberals can't win. You nutpick, or choose the most outrageous examples of the left as indicative of the whole, and handwave away any similar tendency on the right. It's disingenuous, not productive and makes suspect your entire premise. That's just tribalism. You acknowledge certain liberal gains already made, like the destigmatization of homosexuality, without acknowledging that conservatives vehemently opposed it at first. It's simply not an honest look at the situation, it is a demonization of a side, no nuance or subtlety at all.

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3620

by free thoughtpolice » Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:54 am

Brive1987 wrote: Oops

What's the big deal? That is pretty much the law in Canada. Exceptions are made for certain collectible firearms but hunters and sport shooters don't need high capacity magazines and it at least makes it a bit more difficult for a mass murderer to rack up as large number of victims as the Brievik and Tarrant types have managed.
Many of the magazines can be altered to hold fewer rounds so confiscation or buyback isn't necessary.

Re: The Trump Dump!

#3619

by CaptainFluffyBunny » Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:29 am


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