National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

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Expand view Topic review: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#528

by KiwiInOz » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:32 pm

Keating wrote: An example of the kind of thing that's necessary to maintain a society:

Absolutely.

https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/wp-con ... _small.jpg

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#527

by MarcusAu » Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:08 pm

Brive1987 wrote: At least we have the tolerated (and yet intolerable) opinion metric well and truly covered.
Your Wecome

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#526

by Brive1987 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:40 pm

Oh Buzzfeed.

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#524

by Brive1987 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:22 am

At least we have the tolerated (and yet intolerable) opinion metric well and truly covered.

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#523

by MarcusAu » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:34 pm

A musical accompaniment to burning architecture?

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#522

by Keating » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:12 pm

An example of the kind of thing that's necessary to maintain a society:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#520

by Brive1987 » Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:52 pm

When the number of people leaving Australia for good was taken into account, the net annual immigration rate stood at a five-year high of 299,190, which includes international students.

In March, Mr Morrison vowed to slash Australia's net annual immigration rate from 190,000 to 160,000. This level, however, is still dramatically higher than the 20th century average of 70,000 per year.

Australia's net annual immigration pace climbed above 200,000 a year in 2012.

In the five years after that, Sydney's median house price surged by 68 per cent as Melbourne's equivalent values rose by 54 per cent, before a price correction took hold.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... 4-800.html


Let’s plot this “always a nation of immigrants” new data point which excludes students.

https://i.imgur.com/KWj1jWR.png

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#519

by Brive1987 » Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:44 am

Kirbmarc wrote:
Brive1987 wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:11 am
CaptainFluffyBunny wrote: https..://mobile.twitter.com/coldxman/status/1115460946519121920
I would be astounded if a foreign born child of Indian immigrants wasn’t arguing the merits of unrestrained cultural diversity.

It’s a half way pitch - that liberalism is now SJW intersectional identitarianism. But hey, there’s no need to defend anything.
Jindal was a Republican governor of Louisiana. Hardly a liberal, let alone a SJW.

But you seem to think that color-blind liberal democratic values are the exact same thing of the SocJus, so I understand your confusion.
You are confused. I know full well he is a republican. Probably a neo-con. The liberal=SJW is his pitch.

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#518

by Kirbmarc » Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:29 am

Brive1987 wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:11 am
I would be astounded if a foreign born child of Indian immigrants wasn’t arguing the merits of unrestrained cultural diversity.

It’s a half way pitch - that liberalism is now SJW intersectional identitarianism. But hey, there’s no need to defend anything.
Jindal was a Republican governor of Louisiana. Hardly a liberal, let alone a SJW.

But you seem to think that color-blind liberal democratic values are the exact same thing of the SocJus, so I understand your confusion.

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#517

by Kirbmarc » Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:28 am

Brive1987 wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:11 am
I would be astounded if a foreign born child of Indian immigrants wasn’t arguing the merits of unrestrained cultural diversity.

It’s a half way pitch - that liberalism is now SJW intersectional identitarianism. But hey, there’s no need to defend anything.
Jindal was a Republican governor of Louisiana. Hardly a liberal, let alone a SJW.

But you seem to think that color-blind liberal democratic values are the exact same thing of the SocJus, so I understand your confusion.

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#516

by Brive1987 » Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:11 am

I would be astounded if a foreign born child of Indian immigrants wasn’t arguing the merits of unrestrained cultural diversity.

It’s a half way pitch - that liberalism is now SJW intersectional identitarianism. But hey, there’s no need to defend anything.

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#515

by CaptainFluffyBunny » Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:04 pm

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#514

by Keating » Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:25 pm

Ben Shapiro talks about the same underlying problem here:

Starts about 1 hour and 17 minutes.

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#513

by Brive1987 » Wed Apr 03, 2019 1:34 pm

free thoughtpolice wrote: Odd that Faith never talks about her physician father and even dropped his name Bazos and goes by her mother's maiden name, Goldy. You would think that as someone that at least pretends to support the patriarchy she wouldn't pull a feminist stunt like dropping her proper surname before she even got married. And now that she is married, she still is using her mother's maiden name, although it's only a few months, she hasn't announced her pregnancy yet so it could be the marriage hasn't been consummated yet. :think:
Even Jenny McDermott, radical feminist, got married, knocked up, and adopted her husbands name (Kiss).
Why should we doubt that she told the story about praying away the cancer? Or shilling for naturopathy? She rebroadcast Alex Jones rant that vaccinating kids is poisoning them without putting in a note that she did not endorse his views on vaccines. Apparently when you said she did put in a statement distancing herself from the antivax thing you were just telling a goldy. It appears that watching her vile propaganda has poisoned your mind and damaged your intellectual honesty and character. :cry:
Not so fast Sonny Jim.

I replied to your vax slander in the main thread. :lol:

I wouldn’t be surprised if Goldy went by her married name outside the public gaze, though even there she might be trying to shield hubby from the crazy shit-flinging. What would surprise me is her dismantling her visible public propaganda brand.

Re baby-talk. We took a year to conceive (endless trying) though our second formed almost with the thought. So much so I secretly had her paternity tested. Go figure. ;)

I will leave it to you to troll-track Goldy’s relationship with her father. I am more interested in how her demographic argument breaks down. Not whether I find her choice of yoghurt offensive.

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#512

by free thoughtpolice » Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:17 am

Odd that Faith never talks about her physician father and even dropped his name Bazos and goes by her mother's maiden name, Goldy. You would think that as someone that at least pretends to support the patriarchy she wouldn't pull a feminist stunt like dropping her proper surname before she even got married. And now that she is married, she still is using her mother's maiden name, although it's only a few months, she hasn't announced her pregnancy yet so it could be the marriage hasn't been consummated yet. :think:
Even Jenny McDermott, radical feminist, got married, knocked up, and adopted her husbands name (Kiss).
Why should we doubt that she told the story about praying away the cancer? Or shilling for naturopathy? She rebroadcast Alex Jones rant that vaccinating kids is poisoning them without putting in a note that she did not endorse his views on vaccines. Apparently when you said she did put in a statement distancing herself from the antivax thing you were just telling a goldy. It appears that watching her vile propaganda has poisoned your mind and damaged your intellectual honesty and character. :cry:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#511

by Brive1987 » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:15 pm

Congratulations. You found a bigger kook than the one you seek to pull down. And one who dislikes Goldy and is happy to strawman. I wasn’t aware Eastern Orthodox revered icons but I will now withdraw my membership application.

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#510

by free thoughtpolice » Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:44 pm

It turns out Faith Goldy shouldn't be considered a Christian. Real Christians just hope3 she was an atheist, and then charity3.
http://allanruhl.com/the-decline-of-faith-goldy/
In 2014 she hosted a Catholic event in my city. She moderated a discussion with three local Priests and talked about how she came to faith. She mentioned that she came from a vague Christian background. One of her parents was Greek Orthodox, the other was Ukrainian Greek Catholic. She talked about how her mother was sick and on the brink of death. I can’t remember the specific illness but I believe it was throat cancer or something else to do with the throat. The doctors said that she had two weeks to live. Faith Goldy then found some icons, put them up against her moms throat and prayed over her. Her mom was cured and went on to live for six more years. What a beautiful story. I got to meet her in person at the end of the night.
Then things got dark.

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#509

by Brive1987 » Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:20 pm

Damned Africa, pipping us at the post. Those billion extra people in Asia ... need a home.

The stubbornly self-identified “Chinese-Australian” community are busy getting both Labor and Liberal to kiss their ring during election season. This one is so ethnically aware that she lambasts one team for including a Taiwanese.

It’s worrying how she rejects racist tokenism from the whites while vigorously maintaining her people’s seperate identity.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal ... 5191w.html

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#507

by KiwiInOz » Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:30 pm

Keating wrote:
Brive1987 wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:01 pm
Reward those people who do not hold dual citizenship
I hold dual citizenship, but I agree it's a really bad idea. I'm not going to cut my nose to spite my face, but it does enable a dual loyalty which isn't good. It's really good that Section 44 of the Constitution has been interpreted in the way it has.
I have dual citizenship too, and think that it is a great idea. My wife has three (British, NZ, and Oz). One of my reasons to get Oz citizenship was to legitimise my bitching about the Government (i.e. having voting rights along with my tax paying rights). My loyalties are only split when the All Blacks are playing the Wallabies and when Australia claims pavlova, Phar Lap, Crowded House etc etc as Ocker.

The Australian psyche is harsher on the common person than the NZ psyche, in my observation. So I claim to be Australian if I am being a bastard, and a Kiwi if I am being compassionate, empathic, educated, capable, etc.

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#506

by Brive1987 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:24 pm

MarcusAu wrote: Also, Don Bradman!
i think the important think is to set principles and then work down to the pragmatic. It provides a vision or strategy for more tactical action. So I don’t believe “thinking big” or impracticality is, in itself, a problem.

Other observations
+ Government can influence institutions without obvious enforced policy.
+ With the right culture, the flag (or our relatively functional government) wouldn’t be a point of contention.
+ the extent of our freedom of speech (aka the Overton window) is already narrow - in favour of progressivism.
+ I’m not adverse to a counter culture that reverses that situation somewhat. In my day bagging the country wasn’t an option

Right now I’d settle for a dramatic slowdown in immigration and family friendly policies.

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#504

by Lsuoma » Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:43 am

Keating wrote:
Brive1987 wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:01 pm
Reward those people who do not hold dual citizenship
I hold dual citizenship, but I agree it's a really bad idea. I'm not going to cut my nose to spite my face, but it does enable a dual loyalty which isn't good. It's really good that Section 44 of the Constitution has been interpreted in the way it has.
I am a septic and a limey. However, I would certainly be willing to relinquish my right to vote, etc, in the UK, if I could retain right of entry, work, and employment - essentially a green card for the UK. I haven't voted there since I moved permanently to the UK since I never intend to return permanently.

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#503

by MarcusAu » Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:31 am

Brive1987 wrote: Pragmatic solutions?

Institute functional language and culture tests - if you can’t communicate you can’t be part of society
Establish English as the official national language
Teach a non black-armband history and celebrate national holidays
Put in place measures to celebrate and promote the family and child rearing
Cut social welfare in favour of return to work
Reward those people who do not hold dual citizenship
Limit or ban most foreign ownership of property - especially infrastructure and residential
Drop state sponsored SJW aligned programs and initiatives
Reject on principle parallel cultural special rights for Islam and other ethnic minorities
Retain the current flag and democratic system
Try to develop strategies that encourages amateur sport
Don’t reward elite institutions who spaz out when cultural emblematic Christianity is occasionally invoked ...
Offer “return to homeland” assistance for those unwilling to play along.
If I could add my 2d worth in (partial) response...though with inflation it might be questionable if it's worth that much.

These seem to be points for a conservative party to raise - I'm not so sure there would be major buy-in from the other side of the spectrum...or somewhere over the rainbow.

Many of them could be argued ad nauseam - for example to define 'SJW aligned programs and initiatives'. At which point half the population might decide that they quite like these things after all. The conservative / libertarian principled position might be to "Shrink government so small we can drown it in a bathtub" as Grover Norquist wrote, but most people in the end accept that politics is the art of compromise and that they will get some of the things they want.

I can't think of a better way to create an organised (or disorganised, I suppose) opposition to something than creating a government policy to enforce it. (Though not everything in the list gives that as the solution). It's a list of things to create / promote a sense of community or national identity...but at some point does it not come into conflict with other principles eg Freedom of Speech? The NZ government might argue 'no' - ie that society must be protected from bad or harmful ideas if it is to flourish.

re the Australian flag (or the NZ one, or the Union one, I suppose) - if enough people wanted to change it - would there be a democratic path to do so? Same with getting rid of the queen.

I'm all for 'spazzing' out for anyone that wants to do so. I'll take on a case by case basis what reward (or punishment) should be given. To what extent people are institutions I don't know. (Though I think my dad considered Dawn Fraser to be one).

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#502

by MarcusAu » Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:53 am

Brive1987 wrote: We sold the fucking port of Darwin. Not cool.
Yes - if the 'You Broke it You Bought It' principle applies - it should be the Japanese.

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#501

by Brive1987 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:26 am

https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/861 ... ?width=650

Interesting. And a bit sad eh? Most leaving Sydney are established residents

I’m not trying to effect change via the Slymepit. I am testing my thinking against the liberal worldview.

Dole = unemployment benefits.
SJW programs include shit like safe schools and SBS. -not Unis which are commercial for profits focused on foreign revenue.
History should look at the national narrative from a positive perspective. Founding, development and institutions.
Benign institutional Christianity has a natural rather than a required role.
I’d reward non dual nationalities by punishing dual citizens holders. Tax, voting, ability to hold office. Stuff like that.
We sold the fucking port of Darwin. Not cool. You don’t sell the silverware.

http://theconversation.com/darwin-ports ... ion-108254

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#500

by Keating » Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:38 am

Brive1987 wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:01 pm
Reward those people who do not hold dual citizenship
I hold dual citizenship, but I agree it's a really bad idea. I'm not going to cut my nose to spite my face, but it does enable a dual loyalty which isn't good. It's really good that Section 44 of the Constitution has been interpreted in the way it has.

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#499

by Kirbmarc » Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:12 am

Brive1987 wrote: Ie ditch the dole (which encourages the embrace of victimhood) in favour of proactive measures geared at self esteem and personal productivity.
The devil is the details here. What exactly are these measures you're proposing? "The dole" is a term with many connotations. Maternity leave, family checks, or access to childcare, have been described as "the dole", even if they're actually very much what you need to give more incentives to motherhood.

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#498

by Kirbmarc » Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:10 am

Brive1987 wrote: Limit immigration to 70k pa
Theoretically not impossible, but in order to convince people to support this reform, you need to appeal to a vast number of voters, far beyond those who can stomach the identity politics of the alt-right.
Institute functional language and culture tests - if you can’t communicate you can’t be part of society
Establish English as the official national language
If properly implemented, this doesn't sound too bad. It also doesn't require the "cultural replacement" rhetoric.
Teach a non black-armband history and celebrate national holidays
Again, the trick is how you set this up, but nothing too awful, at least on those terms. History is complex and hardly ever morally black or white, but some public recognition of important moments of the past is not a bad idea. As long as it's not used to promote alienation of a part of the population, and instead inspired by messages of unity along the lines of the institutions of the country, I see nothing wrong with this.

I actually think that the simplistic SocJus rhetoric turns some academic arguments over history into banal platitudes ("oppressed/oppressors") that do not actually help anyone.
Reward those people who do not hold dual citizenship
How so? The devil seems to be in the details with this one.
Limit or ban most foreign ownership of property - especially infrastructure and residential
This will severely limit trade, and have very bad effects on your economy. It's also quite illiberal, at least on those terms.
Drop state sponsored SJW aligned programs and initiatives
It depends on how this is implemented. Done badly it could severely impact academic freedom. It's better to put rules to limit ideological dogpiling by limiting the power of people to fire or "deplatform" people for their political views, and let academia sort itself out.
Reject on principle parallel cultural special rights for Islam and other ethnic minorities
Nothing to object here.
Retain the current flag and democratic system
Perfectly doable without any negative consequence.
Try to develop strategies that encourages amateur sport
I'd add in strategies to encourage civic engagement over shared projects. Sport is definitely an avenue for community building, but not the only one.
Don’t reward elite institutions who spaz out when cultural emblematic Christianity is occasionally invoked ...
I don't think Christianity needs to have a special institutional place in order for your plan to function.
Offer “return to homeland” assistance for those unwilling to play along.
This is very unlikely to happen, at least voluntarily.
These seem to be a pretty reasonable set of club house rules.
Some are more reasonable than others. However even some of the most reasonable ones probably require you to win elections to be implemented. And in order to do that, the overly "ethnic" focus of your favorite Youtube pundits very likely needs to go. Looking at Australian elections, there doesn't seem to be much room for an identitarian, ethnic-based far-right movement anyway.

Bitching online on a small forum won't help you to get anything done. And promoting grifters like Goldy or Southern is even less likely to get you where you want.

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#497

by Brive1987 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:57 am

Ie ditch the dole (which encourages the embrace of victimhood) in favour of proactive measures geared at self esteem and personal productivity.

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#496

by Brive1987 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:55 am

Kirbmarc wrote:
Put in place measures to celebrate and promote the family and child rearing
Cut social welfare in favour of return to work
Those two measures are incompatible. Two of the biggest reasons why people make less children is that a) they cannot afford them, especially not if they don't have a stable income and/or access to child-care services and b) they have to work and so have less time to take care of them, especially if child care services are non-existent/too expensive.
Part of celebrating the family is engineering an environment where women have the economic option of bing mothers.
This is not incompatible with replacing social welfare safety nets with employment opportunity and training.

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#495

by Keating » Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:53 am

This is a pretty good article about the underlying morality that's going on:
https://quillette.com/2019/03/27/the-ex ... -morality/

It would be useful for Haidt's work to be more widely read. It really explains shitloads about what's going on.

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#494

by Kirbmarc » Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:39 am

MarcusAu wrote:
Kirbmarc wrote: Those two measures are incompatible. Two of the biggest reasons why people make less children is that a) they cannot afford them, especially not if they don't have a stable income and/or access to child-care services and b) they have to work and so have less time to take care of them, especially if child care services are non-existent/too expensive.
Which is the conservative criticism of capitalism. Ie that it disrupts traditional communities.
Some sort of safety net/network of access to services that encourages people to invest in their children is an idea I can get behind, even as someone who's definitely not a conservative.

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#493

by MarcusAu » Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:25 am

Kirbmarc wrote: Those two measures are incompatible. Two of the biggest reasons why people make less children is that a) they cannot afford them, especially not if they don't have a stable income and/or access to child-care services and b) they have to work and so have less time to take care of them, especially if child care services are non-existent/too expensive.
Which is the conservative criticism of capitalism. Ie that it disrupts traditional communities.

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#492

by Kirbmarc » Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:04 am

Put in place measures to celebrate and promote the family and child rearing
Cut social welfare in favour of return to work
Those two measures are incompatible. Two of the biggest reasons why people make less children is that a) they cannot afford them, especially not if they don't have a stable income and/or access to child-care services and b) they have to work and so have less time to take care of them, especially if child care services are non-existent/too expensive.

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#491

by Brive1987 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:13 pm

I see The Goldern One has just spawned his first cub. Brittany is engaged but waiting to see if Hubby is carted off in the back of a paddy wagon. Blonde has just gotten married, moved away from Progressive Seattle to Nebraska (or Utah?) and is “getting on with it”. Lauren is the only outlier. At 23 she’s got a year or two before the ticking starts.

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#490

by Brive1987 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:06 pm

free thoughtpolice wrote:
I'm either lucky or good, or a mix of those. Four kids, solid thinkers. No SJW, no Alt-Right
You have achieved far more than the most rabid white supremacist. I'm guessing you and your wife are white and by a consistent read have raised 4 well adjusted white kids. Maybe I'm out of touch with the cool alt right types but I want to give you more white supremacist cred than the hate mongering great replacement types like Faith and Southern that put their attention whoring "careers" ahead of their stated beliefs and aren't willing to put the effort to raising the kids that will "be replaced".
Better still I'm guessing you have had your family based on better motives than saving the white race.
:clap:
:lol: :lol: :mrgreen:

Has Faith been married a full 9 months yet?

The real trad-righter of course was wife with a purpose. She who issued a birthing challenge, and got piled on for her trouble.

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#489

by Brive1987 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:01 pm

CFB:
Brive's vision of a community of like- minded folks is a fantasy on par with Steersman's population transfers. 'taint gonna happen. Just serves to rile folks up and generate Paetron bux.
You have a ridiculous habit of straw-personing which hints at lazy thinking.

Australia never had a fantasy of like minded folks. The differences simply didn’t have the current huge cultural chasms between them.

Pragmatic solutions?

Limit immigration to 70k pa
Institute functional language and culture tests - if you can’t communicate you can’t be part of society
Establish English as the official national language
Teach a non black-armband history and celebrate national holidays
Put in place measures to celebrate and promote the family and child rearing
Cut social welfare in favour of return to work
Reward those people who do not hold dual citizenship
Limit or ban most foreign ownership of property - especially infrastructure and residential
Drop state sponsored SJW aligned programs and initiatives
Reject on principle parallel cultural special rights for Islam and other ethnic minorities
Retain the current flag and democratic system
Try to develop strategies that encourages amateur sport
Don’t reward elite institutions who spaz out when cultural emblematic Christianity is occasionally invoked ...
Offer “return to homeland” assistance for those unwilling to play along.

These seem to be a pretty reasonable set of club house rules.

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#488

by Keating » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:30 pm

CaptainFluffyBunny wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:22 pm
The idea of group cohesion may be noble, in a narrow sense, but is it practical?
Probably not, but I suspect the alternative is continued escalation of violence until the entire system collapses.
This is what you're working with. You might not like Kirb's message of enlightenment values, but tell me what else is gonna work.
If that was the baseline, I wouldn't be nearly as worried. But, as you just agreed above this, the academy itself is churning out communists because of over-privileged children who have never experienced hardship.

[quite]You're stuck with the immigrants you already have, you're stuck with the white kids you already have, and most traditional values are simply a trope on the internet. I understand your message, but I fail utterly to understand how you hope to work that into a coherent society with shared goals. Sans that enlightenment message, what do you hope to pass on to the next generation?[/quote]

My point is that we should stop making the problem worse while we try to get back to that enlightenment message. I don't think we can keep doing what we're doing and not expect increased division and eventual collapse. I'd argue the problem is very analogous to climate change. Very hard to work out exactly what needs to be done, and very hard to get every one to agree, but some things are so obviously working against ourselves, that they should be fairly easy to do something about. In the end, though, we already may be too far gone.

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#487

by free thoughtpolice » Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:27 pm

I'm either lucky or good, or a mix of those. Four kids, solid thinkers. No SJW, no Alt-Right
You have achieved far more than the most rabid white supremacist. I'm guessing you and your wife are white and by a consistent read have raised 4 well adjusted white kids. Maybe I'm out of touch with the cool alt right types but I want to give you more white supremacist cred than the hate mongering great replacement types like Faith and Southern that put their attention whoring "careers" ahead of their stated beliefs and aren't willing to put the effort to raising the kids that will "be replaced".
Better still I'm guessing you have had your family based on better motives than saving the white race.
:clap:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#486

by CaptainFluffyBunny » Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:35 pm

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#485

by CaptainFluffyBunny » Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:22 pm

Keating- I had a longer post that somehow dropped in the cracks, here's a quicker, dirtier, somewhat inebriated version-
The idea of group cohesion may be noble, in a narrow sense, but is it practical? You talk about a shared narrative and sense of identity, but society as a whole can't even communicate or spread this to our own native ethnic groups. Marriage and family is being delayed or abandoned by increasing numbers of whites. They're embracing socialism or communism and failing to integrate into their own families, let alone broader society and civic values. Brive's vision of a community of like- minded folks is a fantasy on par with Steersman's population transfers. 'taint gonna happen. Just serves to rile folks up and generate Paetron bux.

I'm either lucky or good, or a mix of those. Four kids, solid thinkers. No SJW, no Alt-Right. They know how to shoot a rifle, start a fire and change a tire. Guessing far more trad than most folk going on about trad values. I'm comfortable that they share my values. Most of my peers aren't so lucky. Their kids are basically nihilists or simply too vapid to form opinions. You go to colleges or universities anywhere in the English-speaking world and you'll see a pampered, sheltered class of snowflakes. Even the conservative kids will "screeee" if they're challenged.

This is what you're working with. You might not like Kirb's message of enlightenment values, but tell me what else is gonna work. You're stuck with the immigrants you already have, you're stuck with the white kids you already have, and most traditional values are simply a trope on the internet. I understand your message, but I fail utterly to understand how you hope to work that into a coherent society with shared goals. Sans that enlightenment message, what do you hope to pass on to the next generation?

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#484

by free thoughtpolice » Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:25 pm

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#483

by MarcusAu » Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:26 am

I just thought she was a dear old duck - who was pleasant enough to listen to - even if she did not have that much to say in the allotted TV time.

And of course as an student of history - you must appreciate primary sources.

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#482

by Brive1987 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:20 pm

MarcusAu wrote: This seems an appropriate place to post this...

[BBvideo=560,315]https...://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4FZkXvAY94[/BBvideo]
Interesting stuff. Thanks.

The trick of course is not to return via Tardis to the past. Rather, to identify, defend and scaffold the peculiar and valuable cultural pieces which defined the group as unique.

Though aspiration never hurts ...

http://i.imgur.com/xxfxRtI.jpg

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#481

by MarcusAu » Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:50 pm

This seems an appropriate place to post this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4FZkXvAY94

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#479

by Keating » Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:20 pm

CaptainFluffyBunny wrote: I'd like some proof that racial diviseness can't be solved before I'd remotely consider that to be a valid position. What we're in now is a tiny blip in history, maybe even just growing pains.
I didn't mean to imply that racial divisiveness couldn't ever be solved; I don't believe that. However, where I think there is a problem is if the new arrivals don't have to integrate because there are so many of them that they can continue their previous culture without any need to mix with the existing population. The larger those conclaves grow, the bigger the problem precisely because there is no exchange of culture. I think there is reasonable evidence for this, the most prominent being Putnam's work. (Of course, this is not strictly an immigration problem, as I have maintained, we also have a problem that the existing population doesn't mix with each other either. This has been a problem since the invention of television, and it's only gotten worse.)
People throughout history have had little to no say in events. We're actually at a time when the common person has the most say in events at any time in recorded history. The idea that we don't is a pernicious illusion usually wrought by those selling something.
We also haven't had population transfers on this scale, or where we have, they have completely destroyed the existing population (Americas and Australia). People in the UK still discuss the cultural implications in 50,000 Huguenots coming to the UK three hundred years ago. That's not even a year's worth of immigration today.

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#478

by CaptainFluffyBunny » Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:47 pm



Seems relevant.

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#477

by CaptainFluffyBunny » Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:08 am

Keating wrote:
CaptainFluffyBunny wrote: We do need a better narrative, but retreating into enclaves of homogeneous cultures isn't going to make a better narrative. The racial divisiveness of identitarian politics on both sides are stirring up animosity and hate. That won't end well.
The point isn't to retreat, but an acknowledgement that the racial divisiveness cannot be solved while we simultaneously increase the size of ethnic-conclaves and also produce students who actively hate the existing citizens who have to deal with the results of the growing conclaves.

The anywheres versus somewheres framing is very useful here. Even in Canberra, most people die within 100 km of where they were born. However, almost all of the power in the conversation is held by those who probably won't. It's the speed of the change, and the feeling that you have no say at all that breeds radicalisation.
I'd like some proof that racial diviseness can't be solved before I'd remotely consider that to be a valid position. What we're in now is a tiny blip in history, maybe even just growing pains.

People throughout history have had little to no say in events. We're actually at a time when the common person has the most say in events at any time in recorded history. The idea that we don't is a pernicious illusion usually wrought by those selling something.

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#476

by Brive1987 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:54 pm

free thoughtpolice wrote: I hope this doesn't poison the discourse here.

https...://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrxUbbyjN-w
Fuck off troll.

:)


Starts at 1 min. Hear the succubus demolish Christchurch conspiracy theories, enjoin white males to productive advocacy and promise to run as PM. :dance:

One day. :(

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#475

by free thoughtpolice » Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:56 pm

I hope this doesn't poison the discourse here.

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#474

by Brive1987 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:25 pm

:think:

Hopefully UN endorsed “replacement migration” is startlingly distinct from a (or “the”) Replacement Theory.

If so, the UN needs a new phrase.

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#473

by Brive1987 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:16 pm

Keating has centred his POV on:

The legitimacy of “culture” as a social framework.
The need for an inclusive identifiable narrative owned by geo-groups (nations) distinctive across different nations
An argument against ethnic enclaves.
Concern over observed rapid and unplanned demographic change in Sydney
Institutions based on “cultural traditions”
The illegitimacy of the existing immigration process and procedure
A moratorium on more immigration until we get this shit under control

I am happy to concur with this sane and reasoned approach. Motion seconded. And I (obviously) couldn’t have said it better myself. :mrgreen:

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#472

by Brive1987 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:54 pm

Lsuoma wrote: I hate so say this, because he's Strine, but Keating is basically the only sane, reasoned voice I'm seeing in these threads. Everyone else is trolling, stupid, ungenerous, disingenuous, obtuse, or any mixture of the above.
The important thing in a forum is to actually express an opinion - which can be tested and challenged. I find the strong silent types to be useless in that process.

YMMV.

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#471

by Keating » Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:14 pm

Lsuoma wrote: I hate so say this, because he's Strine, but Keating is basically the only sane, reasoned voice I'm seeing in these threads. Everyone else is trolling, stupid, ungenerous, disingenuous, obtuse, or any mixture of the above.
I hate posting in this thread.

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#470

by Keating » Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:14 pm

CaptainFluffyBunny wrote: We do need a better narrative, but retreating into enclaves of homogeneous cultures isn't going to make a better narrative. The racial divisiveness of identitarian politics on both sides are stirring up animosity and hate. That won't end well.
The point isn't to retreat, but an acknowledgement that the racial divisiveness cannot be solved while we simultaneously increase the size of ethnic-conclaves and also produce students who actively hate the existing citizens who have to deal with the results of the growing conclaves.

The anywheres versus somewheres framing is very useful here. Even in Canberra, most people die within 100 km of where they were born. However, almost all of the power in the conversation is held by those who probably won't. It's the speed of the change, and the feeling that you have no say at all that breeds radicalisation.

Re: National identity overflow thread (inclusive of liberal worldview screeds)

#469

by Keating » Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:07 pm

Kirbmarc wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:59 pm
<snip>
A massive wall of text that never actually engages my points, but dances around them. Who could have predicted this?
Keating wrote:be lectured to by Kirb as he misses the point
Even further limiting immigration has its economic and social costs in terms of losses of economic growth. In order to convince your population to be in favor of more limits to immigration you have to present a convincing case which attract support, not simply argue online about the "loss of identity".
Economic growth in and of itself is clearly a problem. Mathematically, it is an exponential and we live on a finite planet. Immigration as a means of keeping economic growth up is clearly setting up a Ponzi-Scheme. We are eventually going to have to move to sustainable economies anyway.

Sneaky to slip in "social costs" in there. The "social costs" of immigration are exactly what I'm saying we can no longer afford to bare until we sort out the cultural problems.
The insistence on identitarian themes like "the great replacement", which often veer into racial themes, is likely counterproductive to the case for more restrictions, especially now that those identitarian-racial themes are causing violence.
This is indeed one of the cultural problems I'm talking about. If every peaceful venue for debating the problems with multiculturalism are shut down as racist, then only the extreme elements, who don't care about the blow back, are going to talk about it. Breivik explicitly said this himself. In the early 2000s, he thought about going into politics, but saw that even then talking about Islam in anyway was a sure fire path to being publicly destroyed. The recent Christchurch shooter came to the same conclusion, but, terrifyingly, thinks that the best thing to do is to accelerate the process of shutting down debate to further breed radicalisation and trigger a war. I certainly don't want to see more of that, and I don't see how throwing fuel on the fire of multiculturalism by growing the ethnic ghettos while further clamping down on "hate" speech prevents, rather than encourages, that.
People don't wish to be associated with extremism.
People want something to live for and to have a cultural tradition to hand down to their descendants as well. The path we're on is rapidly closing the doors to everything but extremism.
You can spend countless hours online bitching about "loss of identity", but if that makes your position unappealing, because it shades into extremism (which it does) you'll get nothing done.
I don't think I've talked about "loss of identity", but correct me if I'm wrong. I don't think the problem is an identity loss. It's that we don't have a positive cultural narrative about who we are and where we're going. Without that, people will fall back on the identity their ancestors used to have. Worse if the only narrative is negative.
Well, I don't think that all countries need to be subsumed into one culture (I don't even think it's possible, linguistically or psychologically speaking) but certain principles, like human rights, are by their nature universal.
I'm not sure that's true. How do you decide, other than cultural traditions, whether English Common Law or the Napoleonic Code is superior? Laws and human rights are as much part of the culture as are anything else. Human rights, as generally conceived, is profoundly Christian.
I don't think that states should be in the business of deciding what's the purpose of life.
God no. Are you confused? I said there was a good argument that the purpose of culture was to answer questions like this. That is not, and should not, be the same thing as the state. (Indeed, when they do become the same thing, that's pretty much the definition of totalitarianism).
States, however, are in the business of preventing harm to their citizens, and in this sense, a liberal democracy protects people's rights far better and more fairly than an authoritarian theocracy, no matter the flaws of such liberal democracy.
No, I think this is wrong. The ability of a liberal democracy to protect people's rights depends on the culture of the people being positive and a congruent with human flourishing. If they aren't, then a liberal democracy will collapse into mob rule and tyranny. I think what has happened is that we had immense cultural capital after WWII, and we've been spending it without investing in the culture that the next generation should be able to maintain it. Now, we're reaching a point where almost all of that capital is gone, and that is where trust, and civilisation, breaks down. In some ways this is understandable. It is far easier to know why communism is a bad idea if you've actually lived in the USSR. It's much harder to transmit that experience to someone who has never had any hardship.
I don't think this prophecy of doom is necessarily true. I see many potential challenged and problems that need to be addressed, but I see the potential to address them, too.
Of course I see potential to address them too. That's exactly why I'm proposing shutting down immigration and then taking a serious look at how the academy functions. As you say, I don't have any control (nor real interest) over what happens in China or Hungary, so I don't see much point in worrying about that. I do have a concern about Australia degenerating into a self inflicted ethnic tension because I live here. I also worry about the US losing its dominance this century because it is clearly better to be a member of the US empire then it would be the coming Chinese one.

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